I'm sorry, but you can't have laws that apply to certain people and don't apply to others. It sucks, but they are parking illegaly. If they live in the 'burbs, they can get up earlier to find parking, take a bus, take metro, or find another Church closer to their home.

I think that parking should be enforced everyday...just because they are at church doesn't mean they are above the law. What about religions that practice on other days of the week? Should there be relaxed enforcement for them, too?
I am also pretty sure that if the roles were reversed, the church-goer would have a fit and want parking enforcement.

Gentrification displacing churchmembers? That's new to me. Two longterm Shiloh members I know and love, never lived in Shaw. Take a good look at the cars double parking in the hood, not a lot of them are beat up clunkers. Many members from my interactions with them are from the ranks of the middle class.

As a fairly new Logonite, I watch this amusing/annoying scenario play out every Sunday. I would like to mention one important issue it appears everyone is leaving out...the illegal parking is going beyond Sundays on certain blocks. On several nights during the week now, due to church events beyond Sunday, you can find dozens of illegally parked cars.

When I first moved here a year ago, I noticed the Sunday issue. There have been a few occasions when my car has been boxed in by churchgoers. Actually, three over the course of the year On the three occasions, I flagged down someone near the church (a congregant, I assume) who would then proceed to locate the vehicle owner. On average, it takes about 45 minutes for the process to unfold before I can move my car.

If want a visual, please understand, it is my car, registered in DC, with a DC residential permit, parked in a legal zone, with dozens of cars, a majority it MD plates, double parked around me, boxing me in. I contacted the police/dcgov the second time as cars were also double parked (double parked!) in front of a fire hydrant next to my building. Amazingly (ha!) it tooks hours for someone to respond and when I checked the same cars later, there was not a ticket to be seen.

Someone has started a petition in this building, but my roommate and myself have resigned ourselves to the mess. Would I welcome a change? Absolutely. Do I expect one? I'm not holding my breath.

The gentrification argument always amuses me...as it links this issue to race/social issues. I believe the the church enrichs the neighborhood...but sadly, double/triple parking, parking in front of hydrants, blocking sidewalk ramps does not.

What would Jesus do?

Double parking for church is illegal and should be stopped. Funny how it's apparently acceptable to break the law if you're going to church (I wonder if the speeding cameras on 16th St. don't take photos of cars trying to make it in time for the opening prayer?).

What's more, there is no right to "easy" access to church, regardless of whether gentrification has made it more difficult to get to your specific place of worship.

What I find interesting is that this debate seems to be limited to Sunday morning and Christian churches. I've not heard of double-parking problems on Friday around the Islamic Center on Mass Ave. I've never heard complaints about Saturday double parking at the many synagogues around town.

Seems to me that part of the trade-off that comes with living or worshipping in a city is following the city's laws, as irritating or inconvenient as they may be, so that nobody is more inconvenienced than anyone else. The laws are the laws, 7 days a week.

There have been complaints over the years of parking on Fridays at Mass and Waterside, as well as other religious places around town. However, the double parking is somewhat unique and directly inconveneinet to folks who want to be hassle-free mobile on Sunday mornings....

Andrew

No exceptions to illegal double parking for Church goers. The city and local neighborhood groups should work with Churches to deal with this issue.

Vic - probably not very hard during most of the year, but I doubt there are many parking facilites who would be willing to sell spaces at a discount price when they could get 2-3 times as much for that space from a suburbanite going to see the circus or a sporting event, whether it's for a church or not.

I have seen other cities that basically have no parking laws on Sundays. People park in the middle of the streets (no double parking) across the center divide. That would be another way to solve the "problem" too.

the churches have been doing this for years. why is it a problem now? does tradition carry no weight here? why can't new people who move into the n'hood accept the inconvenience one day of the week? why should the folks who have been going to these churches for generations change their ways, or must they bend to the will of all the newcomers?

churches tend to have a positive influence in the community. churchfolk tend to not rob people or smoke rock in broad daylight.

i say this as an ardent atheist, who has no interest in anything spiritual. all this "letter of the law" talk is absolute b.s. so what if they park illegally. who here hasn't? how many drivers here go exactly the speed limit every day on the way to work?

churches are a fixture in many dc communities. i say deal w/ it or move elsewhere.

As a nineteen year residents of Logan Circle, I am fed up with the illegal parking on Sundays. We are sitting ducks if there is (God forbid) an emergency and crews have to get to the fire hydrants, etc..... I gave up on asking the police to enforce the city's parking laws years ago after making hundreds of calls to police and dc council people. I applaud the current effort to stop the illegal parking. The illegal parking is unfair to all of us.
Of note, tickets are regularly given to churchgoers on Sundays in upper northwest (Connecticut Avenue).
Maybe Mr. Howland and Mr. Carr can explain that.
All this talk about gentrification? How does that have anything to do with the law?

Umm, why doesn't someone build parking garages near some of churches with bigger congregations? That's how they do it in the suburbs (if there isn't room for just a big flat lot). Since space is a premium in the city, you would obviously charge an hourly fee to park in the garage to pay for the costs. Is that naieve?

Any opinions from actual church-goers who double park and see any justification for it?

sundays are lite traffic days. so late sat nite double parking is not the same.

for all of you who are suddenly sticklers to the letter of the law, i'd love to see how fast you drive.

if these church goers started getting tickets, they would start carpooling.

I think it's absolute horse crap that idiot religious 'cristians' think the law shouldnt apply to them, and more so that the cops are not ticketing them.

I recently moved from a house near a large church at the corner of 10th and Mass NE that holds services on SATURDAY mornings. I was fortunate to rent a room in a house with a garage parking spot, which I paid extra for. The exit from this garage was a very narrow alley.

Countless times on Saturday mornings I could not get out of the alley due to churchgoers blocking the alley by parking their cars in the alley entrance. When I finally summoned someone to fetch the culprit and get them to (eventually) move their car, I would drive off past the double-parked cars and cars in no-parking zones (limiting visibility to get across Mass, Constitution, and other busy streets) and see AMPLE street parking--not kidding--three blocks away. Is this an instance of lazy suburbanites who can't conceive of walking three blocks, much less seven or eight-- the distance to the nearest metro station?

I called the police repeatedly and never once saw them respond.

Thankfully, I just moved... to a new house on Capitol Hill that is three doors down from a Sunday-worshipping church that also offers only street parking. Sigh.

no really, robbing banks is not the same as parking illegally.
a lot of this seems like the folks who move into adams morgan, then complain about all the noise.

no really, robbing banks is not the same as parking illegally.

Dude, the point wasn't that robbing banks is the same as parking illegally.

The point is that something that is considered tradition should not be allowed to continued if it breaks the law. Tradition, as Andrew aptly pointed out, does not make it right or fair. This tradition never should have allowed to start and shouldn't be permitted to continue.

I appreciate your concern with tradition. However, this tradition is illegal and for good reason. Double parking is a traffic hazard and a safety hazard. Parking at hydrants is also a legitimate safety hazard. Blocking driveways and other access points is just plain rude (not to mention against the law). These are legitimate concerns that trump a congregations' inability or inflexibility when it comes to figuring out creative transportation solutions.

I have a small theory on this, and wonder if someone who lives in Shaw/Logan could confirm or deny this...

I live in Columbia Heights, where the problem is significantly smaller, but there is one church in particular that I have noticed gets a lot of it's congregants from Md. I haven't noticed a lot of double parking or a problem with a shortage of spaces, but I don't have a car myself so I tend to be less observant of such things. What I have noticed is that the majority of people I see being dropped off or returning to their cars after services are elderly or at least middle aged. I rarely see a child or young couples. Is it possible that in churches where the majority of attendees no longer live in the area that we are seeing the last generation of this problem, and that congregation size will drop, as younger people choose to go to churches in their own communities? Obviously this doesn't solve the problem today, but maybe 15 years from now things will be different? I don't know, is this particular church an anomaly or is there actually a generational divide here.

For what it's worth I feel for people getting boxed in, but I also feel for the old lady who has arthritis and cannot walk very far...

I think it's interesting that it wasn't until 40 comments into this discussion that someone mentioned that the congregants' age is a crucial factor here.

A solution needs to be worked out that takes into account that many of these folks don't just need on-street parking within 10 blocks; many of them need to park very close to the Church. It's not just a matter of enforcement (which is important), it's also a matter of creating alternatives - which is where the Church leaders and neighborhood and city officials have some real responsibility to work together.

And where these parishioners are coming from shouldn't really be an issue - you aren't going to solve the problem by pointing out that many of the parishoners come from the suburbs. Many of these people are older and have been part of thier congregations for most of thier lives - they're not going to stop going, so we need to find some way to accommodate them without negatively impacting local residents.

SQ, you are absolutely right. A simple solution is the best solution. If the churches just get a valet attendant with a bucket of keys, it would go a long way toward solving this problem. If these drivers all parked their cars 'legally' within a few miles of the churches, there would NEVER be a legal parking spot for ANY of us on Sundays. Likeways, the elderly church-goers would be hot, tired and crankier than they already are from having to walk two miles to get to church. The fact is, it's better to have them double parking on the streets (but not blocking fire hydrants, that's a different story). As long as the people who have their cars parked in can get them out without much hassle (and most valet companies operate a pretty painless system) there isn't much need for everyone to have their collective panties in a bunch. The only problem I have with it all is the case where fire hydrants are being blocked, but to be honest, I live right next door to the church in Logan that we're talking about and the church-goers are usually good about not blocking the hydrants.

As a disabled person I know first-hand how difficult it is to go to places where I can't park right by the door but I don't just say "screw-it" and make my own parking space if one doesn't exist. One of the churches on 14th Street offers valet parking. It's a minimal investment on the church's part and offers curb-side convenience to the elderly and disabled. The other churches could easily follow suit if they wanted.

crikey! now its about the separation of church and state, as well as "our" home and "their" sense of entitlement. as an agnostic cyclist and lilly white newcomer, i don't have a horse in this race. but it bears mentioning that churches are not Targets or Giants, they are unique places of assocation that hold deep significance for the people who go there (or so i hear). particularly when members of an existing community scatter, "regardless of their reasons for doing so," a church functions to maintain a sense of community identity for people who view that identity as vital to their own. this isn't solicitude for religion, it's solicitude for community, and there is at least some validity to that.

personally, i don't like the double parking thing because i hate biking next to parked cars. but in essence this is an issue of relative convenience or inconvenience, and seems ideally suited to a rationally negotiated and mutually acceptable compromise. has anyone tried this?

ps: infidel, try or not, you are flirting with inflammation.

As a 20-something, gay, white, district resident church-goer (we exist?), I'll throw my two cents into the fray. I live in Logan/Shaw but attend at a pretty large church on Capitol Hill. Our members range from young exurban couples with children (who drive a long way in) to the very elderly (a number in their 90's) who still manage to carpool/walk or even take a cab.

Parking is difficult on Sunday morning, but I've never seen one of our congregants double-park. In fact, I've seen people of all ages/races park more than 5 blocks away and hoof it to church. It's an inconvenience, but we suck it up and deal.

I just don't see the logic in breaking laws to practice one's faith. It's illogical.

PS: Sounds like a valet service is the way to go if parking is really THAT bad.

The (Mostly) Perfectly Simple Brilliant Win-Win (Almost)Everybody's Happy Solution to the Church Parking Issue:

Draw a line through the middle of every curbside parking lot. Then, on Saturday night, everyone that lives near a church parks their car perpendicular to the curb, freeing up space for Sunday morning's church-goers to also park perpendicular to the curb. This way no one gets blocked in. You still have the problem of effectively narrowing the lanes, but at least no one's car is blocked in.

I understand and appreciate the concerns of some of you about being good neighbors to the churches and, in that vein, I would encourage you to read the letter from Logan residents which specifically states that the signatories do not in any way want to interfere with church events and even view the churches as a vital part of our community ... we just want them to be respectful of the residents and abide by the same laws that we do.

The bottom line is that the DC legislature has strictly prohibited double parking at all times in all areas of the city ... including churches ... and neither the mayor's office nor the police have the right to override and disregard these properly-enacted laws ... and church congregants should obey them as do the rest of the city.

I would also point out that several members of the community approached the church prior to the sending of the Logan residents' letter only to be told that they were here first and if we don't like it we should move -- a response which I personally found to be highly offensive. In fact, I personally left my name and number twice with church officials trying to set up a meeting to discuss the problem, but never received a call. And, despite the fact that some of the churches claim to have a system in place to move cars, the responses here evidence that this is not usually easily or timely done.

I would also point out that there are extreme safety issues (such as the blocking of fire hydrants, crosswalks and intersections) that arise from the illegal parking that have resulted in accidents near my home. This is a significant problem, as are the many complaints from neighbors about not being able to use their cars due to being double-parked. Indeed, I can tell you with certainty that church congregants on my block in particular just pull up and park in the middle of the street most nights of the week - illegally blocking traffic and creating safety hazards - despite the fact that there are often legal spaces available on the same block. (And, no, many of these people are not old or disabled ... afterall, they are driving). It appears that they double-park so as not to be blocked in ... the very thing that they are doing to persons who live in this neighborhood!

As for the gentrification argument, I would note that most of the church congregants that illegally park on my street drive expensive luxury vehicles of the rich, not the poor. The church across the street from my house owns many properties in the neighborhood and is clearly financially healthy ... so that argument is not truly valid.

The "tradition" argument is equally invalid. In the first place, at least on my block, the illegal parking is now happening 5 - 6 days a week ... not just on Sundays. Beyond that, as many posters have accurately pointed out, the fact that congregants have been acting illegally and disrespectfully toward community residents for years does not justify their continuing to do so ... especially when we are now politely asking that they refrain from so doing.

Finally, I would close by noting that members of other religious institutions (such as temples and synagogues) and persons attending hospitals and private schools in this city all do so while complying with parking regulations so as not to interfere with local residents. Indeed, every private school my son has attended in this city has a strict policy of no illegal parking and goes out of the way to assure no inconvenience to local residents. It is the same with the synagogues and temples ... for just last month I attended a bar mitzvah on Wisconsin Avenue with 100's of persons in attendance, all of whom arrived early enough to find legal parking in accordance with the policy of the synagogue. And, last year I broke two ribs and had to drive myself to the hospital where, despite being in considerable pain, I had to find a legal parking space and walk myself to the emergency room. Why can't persons attending church do the same? There is plenty of parking available ... afterall, how many tens of thousands of people come to this city during the week to work and find legal parking while so doing ... and there is no justification for disregarding the laws of this city simply because church members don't want to walk a few blocks as do attendees of other functions in this city.

I wholly support the churches and hope that they stay in the neighborhood and continue to do their good work. I simply believe that they should do so while being good neighbors and respecting the residents who live in this community. Afterall, wouldn't you want your neighbors to abide by the laws and be respectful of your rights and ability to enjoy your own property and neighborhood?

Thank you.

I literally just saw a DC parking cop writing tix along Vermont Ave. at this very spot. Who says the DC govt is unresponsive.

I have lived in this city, and this neighborhood, for 20 years and have NEVER seen police or parking enforcement ticket church-goers despite repeated complaints from residents. As far as gentrification goes, the truth is that 20 years ago virtually every house on Logan Circle was boarded up and the area was rampant with drug dealers and prostitutes. People came in and spent a lot of money to fix up the houses and clean up the neighborhood and they should receive the same protection of the laws as everyone else. They own the properties that they bought and they have the right to access them without hassle as does every other property owner in this city. If the churches have been here as long as they say, they had plenty of opportunity to act as responsible citizens and buy land and build the necessary parking facilities. They chose not to do so and it is not up the rest of the community to bear the burden of their decision. Clearly, they are interfering with their neighbors rights which is not the Christian way and is just plain wrong. Churches are supposed to set an example for society. In this case, they should do so by abiding by the law!

Actually, Steven, we live in the building across from the church that everyone is talking about and MPD gave us a ticket last night at 3 in the morning for Not having a zone 2 sticker on our car. So all of this ridiculous attention brought to this ridiculous subject is now going to cause the cops to ticket everybody a whole lot more. Mark my words. We reap what we sow. This is lame.

Lame? Jeff, if you live (your words) across the street from the church in question, you should have a Zone 2 sticker. It's your duty and responsibility to register your car in DC within 30 days after you move here and that entitles you to a parking permit. If you live here and choose not to you are fair game for a ticket. The RPP program works and doesn't penalize "everybody" - just those who don't comply with the law.

Why would they be enforcing Zone parking overnight? The restictions usually end around 8:30 PM

Andrew

Good point, Max. Zone restrictions don't apply at 3 a.m., so obviously Jeff is ill-informed and out of touch.

Zipcar's deal with dDot does not include any compensation to Zipcar.

And as far as I am concerned, I am not sure why so many people who I have seen move into Washington for the last 11 years need to have a personal vehicle when there are so many public transportation options like Zipcar which are more economically practical and environmentally sound. I thought living in accesible city's advantage was not having to own a car...

Ah yes ... lets allow the government to pressure us to sell our cars by slowly making less parking spaces available. Great idea! Now should the government force us not to smoke? Oh, wait ... that already has happened.

if that was a serious question, then here is my serious answer:

well, i guess you'll have to use those things with which hominids are equipped for the purpose of transportation. or take the metro. and zipcar/flexcar will refund you any charges in such an event via their customer service hotline. and then you can choose another car from the various cars which are in many convenient locations.

Mitch, I believe the spaces provided to Zipcar that are on public rather than private property are NEW spaces - I don't think the District has reclaimed public or metered spaces for Zipcar. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've reduced the number of spaces available. Also, there's the whole argument of shared/rented cars reducing total car ownership and therefore freeing up spaces rather than taking them away.