February 24, 2006
DCist's Photo Policy
There has been some recent discussion regarding our use of photos under a Creative Commons license. Some readers have objected to our posting of images with noncommercial restrictions, arguing that our parent organization, Gothamist LLC, is for-profit, and we therefore should not be considered appropriate users of those photos.
We continue to believe that based on our revenue sharing arrangement with Gothamist, the way in which copyright responsibility is placed on writers, and the fact that our writers are uncompensated, our use of noncommercial Creative Commons images is acceptable. But, since we respect the ideals behind Creative Commons and the opinions of artists as we've heard them, we have decided not to use photos on which a noncommercial condition has been placed.
One exception, though. We often take pictures from Flickr that are tagged "DCist," understanding that such a tag constitutes a license for us to use the picture on our site. This benefits us because it gives us great shots to work with, and benefits local photographers because it gives them an outlet for their work. We faithfully credit the shots we use, and if a particularly photographer does not want his or her work displayed on the site, we're more than willing to remove the pictures in question. We will continue this practice.
Keep those photos coming! If there is one thing we have learned, it's that the District's photo bloggers are second to none, and we're honored to have the chance to display their work.
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I don't use flickr, but y'all have used some of my photos in the past. You're welcome to continue as long as there's a credit.
Always. And thanks for the offer.
That's a good, fair policy. It's a gray area as to whether or not DCist is non-commercial or not, so I like that you're erring on the side of caution (but giving an easy route for people to grant an implicit license).
As far as I'm concerned, though, as long as you're not *selling* the prints (which you're not), it's not a commercial use.
Just a quick comment: nobody "owns" tags on Flickr. I've learned this the hard way with tags that I created (or used for the first time). So, given that, I doubt the use of a tag would implicitly override the explicit license associated with a photo (just as a matter of law). I totally agree with where you guys are coming from, but this is the just the current state of affairs regarding copyright (or copywrong) that we all have to labor under.
How about, you know, asking for permission if there's a gray area?
In most situations, timeliness is a priority. Asking for and receiving permission can take hours or days. Where there's a gray area, we'll therefore err on the side of caution.
i'm pretty sure that the photobloggers in d.c. are aware that if they tag a photo dcist, it will show up on the site. anyway, as said above, if they don't want it to be on there, they can ask for it to be removed and i'm sure it would be done promptly.
I really hate copyrights, trademarks, patents, DMCA, Sonny Bono (may he rest in hell), etc.
Artists are greedy, self-righteous and annoying. Corporations have taken over the system and broken it.
If my Blackberry gets cancelled this weekend while congress critters get to keep theirs I'm gonna go postal.
Miguel, you will have to wait till monday, mail isn't delivered on weekends. Well execpt Saturday, but it aways seems like there is less than on weekdays, so maybe you can just raise your voice and stomp on some flowers on Saturday...
When I run across a particularly compelling photo that I'd like to use but has a copyright on it, I go ahead a request its use from the photographer. Most of the responses are either "of course!" or "there's a copyright on it?"
Though this might not be the view of either DCist or Gothamist, I have to say that I don't believe this is a commercial site. I'm not trying to sell you anything but information, and (as I've said before) the information wants to be free. So we give it to you for free.
The photos we get with the DCist tag are awesome, and I'm psyched that those photographers have decided to share. I believe that most folks on flickr intend to share their photos as well since it's a photo sharing site. I have a feeling that when they think "commercial purposes", they're thinking of Nike or AMD using their photos as advertisements without permission; they're not thinking of bloggers using them (with full credit) as illustration to their posts.
But, I realize that I can't put thoughts in peoples' heads and that we ought to err on the side of caution, and that's what we've done. Please don't treat us like we're scouring flickr to feed on the blood of hapless photographers. I'd be happy if DCist used my photos, and I'd hope you would be too.
Feel free to use my photos on flickr! I often tag with 'dcist' and would be honored to see them on here.
Whereas anyone can tag anyone else's picture on flickr by default, if the user monitors their comments they can see who added various tags. (Though I am not sure how long this data is available to a user, I am sure it would be available on request if the situation were serious.) The user can also remove any tags attached to their photo at anytime, or turn off the function that allows others to add tags.
Additionally, I think that you can turn off the ability for photos to be downloaded, but I'd have to look that up to be sure.
As an amateur photographer I have a creative commons license as a little added security that I am not wholesale ripped off by someone using my work and not giving me credit (and potentially making a bundle of cash, though I am not so self-important to think anyone would make that much money off stuff that I have done.)
That said, it is nice to see a community entity, DCist, wanting to use my work sometimes. I am always really happy when my boyfriend says to me, "Hey, did you notice that DCist used your picture?"
Flickr is largely about community, and so is DCist. That is why they work well together and why I like using them both together. and think I would be sad to see my and so many other wonderful photos drop off the site for an academic issue.
Most people on flickr are dying for more attention to their photos anyway (it's a sickness). So whoever decided to stir this pot in the first place, I do hope they had a legitmate concern and weren't just grandstanding for no good reason.
I trust DCist to make a good faith effort in their photo posting. I would pretty sad if later I was forced to choose between my creative commons license and the opportunity to show some of my photos on this site.
Adam, maybe it's just coincidence that this story popped up so recently after I found one of my Flickr photos used in your "Letting You Eat Cake" item, but rest assured that once I got over the surprise, it didn't bother me. Still, I think you owe me a beer. :-)
- jsmjr
John,
Actually, I sought yours out special because it doesn't have a non-commercial license restriction (and because it's a great photo, btw). The brouhaha started when another commenter on this post saw a high horse walk by and decided jump on. For the record, that photographer was more than happy to have his photo used on the post. He also wished everyone luck in Powerball.
I will buy you a beer though; name the time and place. Would that we could solve all these disputes with beer.
I remember that exchange, Adam, and actually thought that you were a little hot on them. They pretty courteously did you the favor of bringing up something that, here, you've acknowledged was worth thinking about in public, and DCist folks were rather snippy about it.
I thought they kept their horse to a fairly moderate height, but that you then jumped down its throat, despite the fact that the horse was offering rides to ValuableInsightVille and presumably a bar.
Good policy (especially the exception for the Flickr group/tag).
I'm happy I can keep my CC license and still have the opportunity for my photos to appear on DCist, as they have in the past.
Don't forget to post this policy on the actual Flickr group.
I can't speak for the other DCists who posted in that comment thread, as I didn't say anything at all there. You'll have to ask them the reason for their snippiness.
I'm not so happy with the fact that now we're ruling out thousands of photographers to whom we could have given a little exposure; and we're doing it for no reason.
I have a Creative Commons license that includes "non-commercial" and one of my pictures was used on a DCist "Morning Roundup". I must say I was extremely excited to see it up that morning. I tagged it DCist for a reason, but I wouldn't mind at all if they used any of the others not tagged in the same manner. Really, as long as I'm given credit where my picture is posted, I'm happy....so do I need to rethink/rework the CC license? I don't feel DCist's use is commercial. They aren't selling anything, the site is open access - why, I believe it's a blog! (Even Blogger blogs have advertising - the end product, the blog, is free.) And please, don't bring up the t-shirts, I know they're for sale. If the photo in question were used on the shirts without permission, that would be copyright infringement.
Earlier in the week I happened across one of my Borf photos on the DC Indymedia site. My only complaint to them was that I wasn't given credit. They quickly fixed it. But really, when we post to Flickr, there's no good way to track who uses our photos and where. I feel that's just the nature of the interwebs...the more info you put out there, the more likely it will be used in some manner (particularly on a "Photo Sharing" site). Like katmere said, most folks on Flickr crave the attention. Ah, hell, I pretty much agree with everything she said....My pictures are your pictures!
I don't mind anything as long as Rob or DCIST post pics of Shaw. Lovely buildings and great community. Where da pics at?!!???!
First and foremost, I'm glad to see DCist (a) listen to reader/community concerns and (b) respect the principle and importance of the creative commons options for folks doing creative work. Thank you.
I wish I could just leave it at that. But...
DCist Adam: Your comments are way out line. Several people spoke up about this, including some of us who have a history of supporting DCist. Instead of jumping to make denegrating remarks about people, why not take a moment to learn a little more about the creative commons project and why folks who use CC licenses might work to make sure the license is respected, even when it's not their own work (creativecommons.org).
For DCist in general: I appreciate that you're doing the right thing, whatever the rationale. I will mention that your reasoning about being non-commercial is... wrong. Not even some vague area. Really. But that's a long conversation, and probably best had offline, and with beer, anyway.
But again, the big message: thanks for listening to your reader community and making positive changes that support good net politics.
John,
The DCist community isn't as monolithic as you think; several of the posters in this thread prove that there's a wide range of thinking that doesn't mesh too neatly with your thoughts on the photo policy. While DCist is probably going the right way for the site, some folks think it's not necessarily ideal. It's a good enough compromise, though.
As far as me being "way" out of line and belittling, I'd venture that you may be too thin-skinned. Perhaps the implied levity in my post re: horses is too subtle. Apologies.
I use the same non-commercial license for my photos you use for yours. However, it's evident that there is a gulf between your notion and mine of what is and isn't commerical. CC is fantastic, but it's not perfect. Its licenses are too vague to pinpoint a user's intent, especially given the wide range of ideas people have about their art and the nature of its use on the internet.
My ideas, admittedly, are probably leaning toward the libertarian conception of the web. I'd hope the exchange of information would operate in such a way that would protect everyone's rights while also being pragmatic about use. Information wants to be free, but when it's not, it certainly deserves a long leash.
Thanks for sharing your great photos with the DCist community, John. It even looks like we're even the number one tag on your photostream! That's awesome. Your photos are really impressive, pleas keep them coming!
Adam
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