July 20, 2006
Problems with the Countdown Signals?
Being a pedestrian city, DC has its share of pedestrian accidents, with about 3,000 hit a year. The city has been trying to make sure it's safe to walk, in part by installing 1,300 pedestrian countdown signals and starting a pedestrian safety program. However, some of those countdown signals seem to be malfunctioning. A few months ago, I was walking at 16th and U when the countdown signal seemed to skip from about 15 to 0, meaning I was in the middle of the road at zero and had to hurry across. I figured I just misread the signal the first time I looked and forgot about it. Then I noticed the phenomenon another time on Columbia near 16th, and last week saw it a few more times along Massachusetts Avenue near the Convention Center.
Convinced I wasn't crazy, and worried that this could be dangerous and possibly widespread, I contacted the DC Department of Transportation for an explanation — is it an error, or maybe done on purpose to keep traffic moving faster? George Branyan, DDOT's Pedestrian Program Coordinator, said in an email that he wasn't aware of problems like I described and that it was definitely not on purpose, adding that DDOT technicians would look into it the problems. He also wrote that signals which have a "push to walk" button and detect cars, of which there are about 30 in the city, occasionally do malfunction and restart once they get to zero, but that this wasn't the issue at the intersections I mentioned. Branyan recommended that anyone who notices a similar problem call it into the Mayor's Call Center at 202-727-1000. Has anybody else noticed this happening? Maybe you're not going crazy after all.
Photo by Swaneeswan
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I've noticed this a few times at the lights near the Convention Center, so no, it's not just you.
Kevin Drum at Political Animal (the Washington Monthly blog) complained about the walk signals several months ago when he was in DC for a conference. His main problem was that on some intersections the zero corresponded to the beginning of the yellow cycle for the autos and on other intersections zero corresponded to the beginning of the red cycle. So it was hard to predict whether you were going to end up in the middle of an intersection and have cars trying to mow you down. Not quite the same problem as you describe -- but I had thought it was an interesting critique/question.
Absolutely. The countdown at the corner of Whitehaven and Massachusetts stays at 12 seconds for about thirty seconds, and then counts down to zero. There are a few countdowns between the National Zoo and the Kennedy Warren that have similar problems. You do see it around.
You are not crazy!!! I have also seen this phenomenon at intersections along Massachusetts Avenue as well as I Street
Yep--16th and W (Florida)
This happened to me as I crossed the intersection of 15th & K on Tuesday! The numbers tumbled down to 0 and I had to hurry across to avoid oncoming traffic.
13th and Massachusetts occasionally has a similar problemn in the east-west direction. I've watched it count down from around 30 'til 15, then jump up to 50 and count down to 40, and then skip to 0.
Felt like I was watching Ice Pirates
I've noticed this too. It's unsettling to have the number suddenly change to 0, and it feels like a bit of a rip-off.
I can't remember where exactly this has happened to me, but I know I've seen it in multiple locations on Connecticut Ave between Farragut Square and Dupont Circle.
I've only seen it once, but it was just last week near my office on 13th and F... with about 9 seconds left on the clock, it all of a sudden jumped to 39 seconds, and then at 30 seconds, it went back to zero as the light was turning yellow.
Wow - I've never noticed that. I have no doubt that it's true, though, and it's a problem. However, and not to take anything away from this problem, I suspect that most of the traffic fatalities in the city have more to do with aggressive driving and pedestrians crossing when and where they shouldn't than anything else.
I have noticed it at the intersection of 11th and Massachusetts (crossing 11th from the 1010 Mass site to the western side of 11th).
Happened to me a month ago at 7th and Pennsylvania (crossing Penn on the south side). I called it into 311. Haven't seen it happen there again.
I know that the city said they're going to be installing these at all intersections, yet I still find some that don't have countdowns in my daily routine (like 16th and M NW). I guess a called to 727-1000 is in order here, though I don't have the greatest love for that service. Many a request I've made just never gets responded to.
28th and Penn SE. Sometimes the counter is going while both the light and walk signal are red.
The one at Q Street, crossing New Hampshire Avenue, NW in Dupont Circle was broken for the longest time. Did not even count down. So the city fixed it, and they shortened the amount of time you could cross. Great logic!
I had it happen a few times at 12th & F downtown. They aint got to lie...
Is anyone else a little surprised/worried that George Branyan apparently hasn't the slightest inkling that these problems exist? They're obviously widespread, so why hasn't he ever heard of them?
this was happening for a while at 16th & euclid nw, but i haven't noticed it in a while, so it appears it was resolved there at least.
What puzzles me is the difference between rush hour and non rush hour countdowns. On K Street, a really wide street, sometimes the red hand starts flashing with 15 seconds left; during non-peak hours it doesn't turn red hand until something like 5 seconds left. So, um, is it supposed to take us 10 less seconds to cross then? That makes no sense to me.
Yup, crossing P street from the southside to the northside at the corner of P and 7th St. NW, at some point in the count down it goes from 25 to 0.
Ed: The flashing red hand means "if you haven't started to cross yet, don't." It doesn't mean, "if you jump off the curb right now you'll still have time to make it across the street."
It seems pretty logical to me that they would start the hand flashing earlier when the traffic is busy, since heavier traffic means you want to make extra sure that the intersection is clear before the light changes.
it's amusing to me that this is apparently not uncommon, yet he has no idea about it.
I've seen this, too, up at Tenley Circle, a couple of times awhile back. The problem went away.
I think the timing on countdown signals changes according to the time of day (and the specific intersection -- walk a few blocks down any of the main arteries and watch the time you need to cross the same six lanes change as you go) because the signals are geared to the needs of drivers, not pedestrians. There are more cars during rush hour, hence they need pedestrians out of the way so the cars can get through.
I hate countdown signals. They are not timed to the needs of those who can't walk fast and all they do is reinforce drivers' incorrect beliefs that pedestrians don't have the right of way once the light turns red. (By law here, a pedestrian who begins crossing on green/with a walk light has the right of way till they get across the street (or to a safety island), regardless of whether the signal turns red while they are crossing.)
It happened to me at 7th & Penn too!
Pedestrian, I notice this problem at the same intersection you describe. It's an annoyance. The light down the street at 11th and K has the same problem.
Jesus, you've got problems if you can't cross the street without the help of a countdown timer.
yeah, i've noticed this a few times too at a couple of intersections, but it was usually just a one-time deal.
This used to happen at the western crossing of calvert at connecticut southbound, went from 9 to 0 but it wasn't all the time and it appears to be fixed.
han, the problem is it can make it a short warning. the timer goes from walky-dude to hand at the same time, and then you lose 10 or more seconds--it's a problem all right, but it's not your fault.
This happens at 11th and L NW, as you cross 11th going west on the L St south of Mass (not the L st north of Mass). It jumps from 15 to zero.
Not only have I seen this phenomenon on major streets around the mall, which are heavily trafficked by tourists, but there is a new movement by the city to put up blue directional signage where there wasn't before. And one day, oh, about a month ago, I was walking to work, along the same path I always take, and found, a sign sitting directly in front of and blocking the pedestrian signal. To add insult to injury, the trees overhang pretty badly over the traffic light. So much for even seeing the red light. I've already complained to the city, but I doubt they'll take something down they undoubtably spent plenty of money putting up.
23rd and I as well... it goes to 10 and then jumps to 60 occasionally, so you might see 55, 54, 53, 52, 51, 0. OOPS.
Happens all the time on Connecticut at Albermarle, as well as at other places along Connecticut in that part of town. Always wonder why it was happening - I guess I'll call next time.
Often at U St. and 16th. From 20 to 0.
oh, and the clue for you all that it might be malfunctioning. Notice the numbers are flashing red when they go from 20, 19, 18, 0...
I don't think I've ever noticed a difference in timing during rush hour and non-rush hour. The general rule of thumb seems to be for major intersections it flashes red at about 15 seconds. Medium ones it's about 10 seconds, and small streets about 5 seconds.
One signal I would like to see them change is for the crosswalk on the north side of Dupont Circle. It's timed so that when the signal changes to don't walk, there's actually about a 10 second gap before any vehicle traffic, either turning onto the circle from southbound Connecticut Ave, or the outer lane of the circle itself, gets moving. So usually you end up with pedestrians standing there for about eight seconds wondering if they should go anyway, and then starting to walk at 10 seconds, and then running when they see the cars start to accelerate.
It would just be easier if they added 10 seconds to the walk signal. They wouldn't have to adjust the traffic signals at all.
I spent about 6 months getting the pedestrian walk signal fixed in Dupont Circle before finally succeeding through to the right person (hint: the Mayor's line is not the right place to start). If anyone is interested in his number send me an email (buyindie@gmail.com) and I will pass it along.
-Vince
I blame y2k.
What about the walk signals that get twisted around (by getting hit by trucks? wind?) so you can't see them? Sometimes they're even turned 90 degrees and end up facing the crosswalk on the other street. Why are walk signals even designed so that it's possible to move them after they've been installed?
This is a years-old problem. As is the standard "that's news to us" response.
KCinDC: The signals give in the event of an accident and this is the correct behavior. If the signal did not swivel around, the truck that hits it is either going to have massive amounts of damage or the whole signal pole will be damaged. That force has gotta go somewhere. Allowing them to be moved, or removed, is much better than welding them in place.
I think the solution is jay-walking....and plenty of it!
Crossing Constitution southbound on 8th street at just before 10am, the counter goes from 12 to zero.
Politburo, thanks for the explanation. I don't really understand why walk signals are so much more susceptible to being hit by trucks than signs are. In any case, walk signals that aren't visible to those waiting to cross serve no purpose, and walk signals twisted 90 degrees and facing the wrong crosswalk are downright dangerous, because they're telling people to cross when it's unsafe. So we may be avoiding damage to incompetently driven trucks and to poles at the expense of damage to human beings.
The problem was definitely apparent crossing 18th Street NW at Massachusetts Ave.
The light timing definitely changes for rush hour -- walking along Connecticut Ave from 18th and Mass to 17th and Eye Street, I'd catch every red light if I left work before 6:30, but after that time, I could walk -- at the same pace -- without stopping once.
Well, Han, you'd have a problem, too if you stepped off the cub at say 25, with a white walk signal and 5 seconds later, it says 0, the light changes and there's a Mack truck headed your way.
Ditto crossing 18th at Mass NW. Seen it at least twice now in the last two weeks. Thought I was hallucinating the first time.
16th and Q has one (southbound on the east side of 16th) that has the 30 seconds -> 0 problem. Others have mentioned the intersections of 16th and Q, U, W, Florida and Euclid.
Perhaps it is something on 16th Street? Since the road has very different rush hour timings in the different directions, perhaps it has to do with the custom programming for those times?
Yup, on one of the streets around the zoo, went from 15 to 0.
STORKER!