March 19, 2007
Morning Roundup: March Sadness
Race and Income Issues Arise in Gentrification of Adams-Morgan U Street H Street NE: On Sunday, the Post dusted off an old favorite, trotting out a lengthy examination of the tensions that arise when wealthy whites move into a poor African American neighborhood. Somehow, in over 3500 words of anecdotes and florid prose on the changing dynamics of H Street (accompanied by video interviews and interactive features), the story fails to find a new or interesting angle to an important and often repeated story in Washington, and doesn't really take a stab at the important questions: Has the city learned anything from the gentrification of other neighborhoods? Can the so-called Atlas District be revitalized in the interests of the newcomers and the current residents? How?
Residents Eager, Anxious About New Development in Shaw Capitol Hill: Today, the Post follows the H Street piece with another golden oldie – the poor neighborhood on the cusp of revitalization, this time the area just north of the new baseball stadium in south Capitol Hill. Delays in construction have kept the redevelopment of the former Capper/Carrollsburg public housing in suspended animation and created a temporary "ghost town" of vacant lots. How bad was it before? An interviewed longtime resident prefers the barren dirt, saying it's "peaceful" and there isn't the constant presence of police and crime.
Briefly Noted: Governor O'Malley shutters the infamous maximum security prison in Jessup... Four murders shock PG County over the weekend... Global warming may force the orioles out of Maryland
This Day in DCist: Last year, DCist Tom pleaded for a little bicycle commuter love and DCist Ryan did the same for transit.
Photo by Flickr user goldmember.
|
Re: H Street Article..let's see roving bands of yuppies chalking up the tables at Argonaut..or getting shot in the head for no reason..I will take the yuppies anyday.
i'll take anything over being shot in the head....watch the video interview with mr. morales and tell me he isn't the definition of all that's good with humanity in the world.
that said, the jackasses that were doing the chalking and then flaunting their sense of superiority, i wouldn't wish a shooting on them, but if they got mugged, i wouldn't shed a tear.
It's nice to see the Post doing stories about changing neighborhoods in D.C. instead of neighborhoods in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, there seemed to be more reporting effort in the Brooklyn story. My life partner and I put down money on a new place in the baseball stadium area. It should be a fun adventure. Any idea on how to send that Morales guy some money?
That H Street article is the most overwrought piece of garbage I've read in a long time, and that's saying much. The entire first online page is overplayed anecdote mixed with vapid cliches. It sounds like a high-school newspaper "expose."
I love when they throw in all this "context," 90% of which they just made up. I particularly like how they compare DC gentrification to that of, in all places, DETROIT. Maybe they could lay off the white grape juice a bit and actually, you know, check to find out whether there IS any gentrification going on in Detroit.
To say that all white people moving into H Street are wealthy is just not true. H Street has become a mecca for not-so-wealthy white renters. I really wish someone would point out that not all whites are wealthy, and not all blacks are poor.
As for race on H Street, the WP article focusses almost exclusively on race, in a huge article, yet they mysteriously miss the most potent race theater on H Street - the street preachers at 8th and H. They are stridently anti-white and anti-gay.
If this were white people standing on that corner with megaphones belittling blacks you bet the city and local reaction would be vastly different.
Why the double standard?
Chris - You completely missed the point of the chalk story at the Argonaut. What is wrong with someone that they think it's appropriate to utter these words: "You ought to be glad I bought a $500,000 house in your black ghetto neighborhood."? The sense of entitlement that this statement conveys is nothing short of sickening and IMHO this kind of spoiled, recalcitrant, childish attitude on the part of new residents constitutes an interesting angle on the H St. story.
I wasn't around for the gentrification of Dupont Circle and didn't really pay attention to the battles fought on U St., Columbia Heights, et al; so maybe this kind of shit went down in those 'hoods too, but I missed it. I only live a few blocks off of H St., so this hits a little closer to home and I have little choice but to pay attention to what's going on around me. Even as someone who could possible be tarred with the gentrification brush, I wish people who think their $500K mortgages comes with the right to be an asshole would go back to wherever they came from in the first place.
So the area around the new stadium is now "South Capitol Hill?" I guess "Navy Yard" or "Waterfront" isn't sexy enough.
Any idea on how to send that Morales guy some money?
Go to the Argonaut for a cocktail and I'm sure someone will be happy to point you in the right direction.
Don't despair about the bball. The Maryland and GW women are still in it.
Keep in mind you're hearing only one side of the Argonaut chalk story. And is that the best example of white-to-black racism the author could find? A drunk moron in a bar feeling all superior because she bought a house? As a white man on the Hill I've heard far worse directed at me because of my race. Of course, the most potent was at the point of a gun, when the young men holding a gun to my genitals let me know they thought it'd be fun to make sure I never had a chance to help pump out any little white babies. I thought it prudent to not note that there was very little chance of that happening without their intervention.
Maybe we can start calling it SoCaH.
the chalk incident- There's that sense of superiority- breathtakingly naked- but also shocking was such a strong sense of entitlement, and the disrespect for the proprietor and other patrons. A few regulars shoulda said a word or two. I can't imagine drawing on a table unless invited.
Any idea on how to send that Morales guy some money?
Yes, the Argonaut organized his benefit so they would know.
Hillrat I DIDN'T miss the point. I GOT the point. What those people did and said was rude. I don't know why the owner didn't kick 'em out because of the chalk thing alone. My impression of the Argonaut though is that writing in CHALK is hardly a huge breach of decorum. But be honest. Most of the homebuyers are by definition genteel and we are no doubt in for our fair share of horror stories where some REAL act of violence and damage is perpetrated from a non-gentrifier. We have to start being honest in these kinds of issued. Stop apologizing and tell it like it is. It is a free market. What are we to do start reservations for poor people? It is not a race issue. There are hard working people of all colors moving into these neighborhoods. The question is who is the most civil and trying to improve things and who is trying to destroy and disrupt?
The race hatred in DC is beyond anything I've ever laid eyes on - and it's 90% black-on-white. I'm a city boy by nature and have lived for years in NY in neighborhoods that were majority "minority" (mostly Hispanic), and I've loved it. But I'm seriously considering moving to Montgomery County just to get the hell out of this environment. The random "get whitey" crime is just icing on the cake.
It pains me to say it, but people in DC have some major fucking pathologies. If I have to pay this much to live here, I'd rather not be killed, thank you very much.
This place makes the South Bronx look like Mayberry. I feel so many of the people here are just irretrievably fucked up.
Chris, I don't know anyone who'd call a bartender a yuppie, but since the Post made this an exclusively black/white issue, I can see how you'd be confused.
I think the anecdote about the bar pointed out that issue deals as much with class as with race. The bartender in the story was a recent transplant herself, working in a nonprofit before taking her bartending job. The story highlights the difference between newcomers who become part of the community and newcomers who don't even try.
It'll sound pretty trite, but my experience is that taking the time to be visible (helping the old ladies sweep trash, playing with neighborhood kids, planting flowers in the alley/yard, drinking on the porch, etc) goes a long way toward making a newcomer a real and valued member of an existing community.
Just remember, you're entering into a drama that's not about you- it's bigger and older than you are- and respond in a way that will help lay it to rest.
Veritas..if you are a newcomer.. a homebuyer you are DE FACTO a part of the community. You ARE the community. Now whether or not you talk to your neighbors nicely or OTHERWISE is another story.
Hillman & Jason - My guess is that White-to-Black racism is harder to document 'cause White folks have been taught to hide their racism for the last 40 years. Civil rights legislation, school desegregation, and political correctness have created a situation where overt racism by Whites is no longer socially acceptable around people they don't know well. For better or for worse, Black people tend to not have any hesitancy about expressing their racism.
Mark, you got it exactly right. I've lived a couple blocks south of H for thirteen years. I've found that simply saying hello to people goes a long way too, whether it's on my block or while walking down H. Other than a couple of "run forrest"s while jogging I've not experienced any racism, excepting of course the street preachers at 8th and H on Saturdays, which I just ignore (there's no arguing with folks that twisted).
I'm glad the Post covers what's going on on H, but where were they the last 10 years? Other than trumpeting how the H Street Connection was going to repair the 1968 damage (yeah, right - we really needed a suburban strip center)?
I've patronized Horace and Dickie's, Lucky Carryout, and the Murray's for years. I'm glad that I can now also walk to not one but two venues featuring live music.
I spend a lot of time at the Argonaut and I am stunned by that chalk story. I'm not sure there is another side that would make any difference.
But of course, it's not one bad white homeowner or one bad black kid yelling at the Arg's manager that define a whole neighborhood. I did live through the gentrification of U St--peripherally, as a renter--and as a homeowner near the Starburst (where HSt/Benning/Florida meet) I think that the H St. community has learned from the revitalization struggles in other parts of the community. Which is not to say that this process is or will be easy.
South Capitol Hill
SouCH?
Quike fundraising - if you go to the Argo, they will give you all the info you need on how to make a contribution. When the accident first happened, they were just accepting cash (the bank account had not been set up). I am guessing that at this point there is an actual bank account and you can write a check. Also, Quike recently held his first "Music is Bulletproof" event at the Argo - where the $$ went to violent crime victims. Check frozentropics.blogspot.com for current info - Elise (blogger) is really on top of things like this. Every time there is an event like that,she has it posted.
Hillrat..that doesn't sound like "apologist" boiler plate to you? We should condemn all anti-social aggression. Not make excuses for why some is more justifiable than others. Jason is an example of tellin' it straight. How many people have stories of unfathomable acts of aggression from inner-city blacks in DC?
Hillrat:
I don't dispute that white racism is alive and well.
But what I find hypocritical is that people in DC are quite hesitant to call blacks in DC on racism.
I literally can't count the number of times I've heard blacks in DC say things like they won't sell their house to whites, they won't do business with whites, they don't trust whites, etc.
And almost never do I hear anyone call them on that overt racism.
I've actually had black people in DC government tell me that it was perfectly legal and moral to treat blacks and whites different in any dealings with city agencies. There's a reason white contractors and homeowners hire black 'facilitators' to walk permits and documents through DC agencies. It's because we've become accustomed to being treated as second class citizens because we're white.
This institutionalized DC government racism is only a part of it. I see the same attitudes all over the Hill. We tolerate statements from blacks about whites that we'd never tolerate from whites about blacks.
That's why I find things like the WP article hypocritical. By FAR the most prevalent racism I've seen in DC is black toward white, not the other way around.
When neighborhood demographics change there is always upheaval. That's the nature of dynamic cities. And that's the nature of capitalism.
And, yes, we should be sensitive to issues of affordable housing, neighborhood history, etc.
But so far I don't see anyone honest enough to say that a least some in the H Street area simply don't want white neighbors. Most will simply grumble about it. But at least a few will go out of their way to make sure whites don't feel welcome.
Thanks for the advice on Morales. By the way, the developer told us the city is trying to get "SoChill" to catch on for the area. I think Navy Yard is fine, but I like calling it Southeast to see the looks of terror on my suburban coworkers' faces.
"How many people have stories of unfathomable acts of aggression from inner-city blacks in DC?"
Quite a few. But just as often I see the needs of these inner-city blacks ignored and/or swept aside by the cities they live in. Whether it's poor public services or gentrification, for many of this city's poor, there's always something that keeps them from gaining access to the necessities of modern living.
Are the preachers horrible? Yes. Very few would argue that they right in what they say, but we live in a country that allows them to say it. I feel horrible for people who are victims of violence at the hands of others (regardless of their race), but to lay this at the feet of black-white racism is inaccurate. They usually don't rob white people because they dislike them, they rob white people because they assume that white people have money to take.
H will become the New U and the poor black and hispanic people living there will have to move. Will this rid the area of *some* of its crime issues? Yes. Will you still feel pangs of guilt walking around and not seeing any of its former residents? Yes. And that in the end is what all the fuss is about. People wanting the benefits of gentrification without the guilty feeling. It's not going to happen
oh puh-leez. More "boilerplate". "Pangs of guilt" over "not seeing it's former residents"?
I found her insistent use of the second-person to be irritating.
Just a note, the use of "south Capitol Hill" (uncapitalized "south") was meant to make it easier to locate for our readers not as familiar with area names like Navy Yard. It wasn't meant to be a new realtor-approved neighborhood name (a la Dupont East).
That said, it's perfectly appropriate for anyone using "SoCHill" to be punched in the throat.
Chris - Apologist boilerplate? I don't see where I'm apologizing for anything, I'm stating facts.
Hillman - I agree that there is much hypocrisy about racism in DC, you will note that I said, "Black people tend to not have any hesitancy about expressing their racism." I didn't soft peddle it, I didn't sugar coat it; I called it what it is racism.
I keep reading and hearing horror stories about DCRA, but the fact of the matter is that when I had to go there two weeks ago I was in and out with what I needed (a certificate of good standing) in less than ten minutes. Is that because I'm Black or because I had my paper straight and was there when the building opened?
You're way off base with your characterization of "institutionalized DC government racism". The 3/5 Constitutional compromise, that's institutional racism, the Dred Scott decision is institutional racism, "Separate but equal" is institutional racism; a recalcitrant clerk not going to lunch when you reach their counter is not institutional racism. Do you see the difference?
"For better or for worse, Black people tend to not have any hesitancy about expressing their racism."
I think you're ascribing a broad difference where none exists. Most anyone can be subtle if they perceive the need.
It's interesting how our conception of "city living" has changed with the passing of the Industrial Period. From the mid 1800's to the mid-1900's cities were centers of manufacturing and trade. The masses that lived their lived out of the necessity of manual labor. Any RESPECTABLE wealthy urbanite maintained a home in the city to get AWAY from it. As the masses of laborers worked their way up to the middle class they couldn't wait to move OUT of cities. They were always centers of iniquity, poor health and crime. In the 80's and 90's something strange happened and cities became safer and seen as sort of playgrounds of sophistication and urbanity. The working class groups who had not made it out were now being displaced by people with capital and vision of urban renewal. This is where we find ourselves now.
Those street "preachers" are horrible but they're not unique to H st. I remember seeing them almost every Friday outside Metro Center (12th & G).
Chris, there's a difference between being a resident and being a member of a community. That's a reason that many people choose to live in cities rather than suburbs. There's a connection you form when living, shopping, eating in the same place. Its something you opt out of rather into, if you don't engage with the people on your block.
dcist jeff, i will GLADLY punch anyone in the throat i hear calling it by that name which i will not repeat here. :)
I think you're ascribing a broad difference where none exists. Most anyone can be subtle if they perceive the need.
But that's exactly my point; as a general rule Black don't feel any need to hide their racial antagonism towards Whites. Why that is is open to debate.
I'd suggest my years of exposure to DC government shows real institutionalized racism against whites. No, it's not written policy. But it sure as heck is unwritten policy. Not for all,of course. Some DC employees are stunningly helpful, despite working in fairly dreadful conditions. But quite a few make no effort to hide their distaste for whites. They are the face and force of government. As such, it is by definition institutionalized, in practice if not in theory.
Veritas..There is a french painter Corot. Who is known for paintings of peasants working in bucolic settings. Your attitude reminds me of that. The image of urban neighborhoods with wonderful, friendly, peaceful, colorful ,characters..if only the emotionally repressed and snobby newcomers would take the time to get to know them. Of course friendly people DO exist in these neighborhoods but..be honest.
Shaw, I agree but only to a point. When I was robbed at gunpoint the young black men robbing me made it very racial in their actions and comments. It went far, far beyond simply a robbery for money. They were having fun with me because I was white.
Most likely it's often a mix of sheer opportunism and racism.
Mark: I think the subtlety vs open racism is not because some blacks can't be subtle about racist ways, it's because they feel they don't have to be.
And I should go out of my way to say I don't subscribe these feelings to all blacks on the Hill or in DC generally. Far from it.
Hillrat..I call it apologist for this reason. You are ASSUMING that the amount of aggression is equal but we can't count the other side because it isn't expressed. I know what you mean. but honestly HOW do you KNOW it's there if it isn't expressed openly. And OVERT expression is exactly what is at issue here. Civility means NOT expressing everything that comes to mind. You don't walk into a bar and instantly comment on a woman's breasts, even if you have an opinion inside.
In the 80's and 90's something strange happened and cities became safer and seen as sort of playgrounds of sophistication and urbanity. The working class groups who had not made it out were now being displaced by people with capital and vision of urban renewal. This is where we find ourselves now.
Chris - Are you at all familiar with the concept of redlining? Probably not, so let me explain it to you real quickly. For most of the 20th century banks were discouraged by the federal gov't from making housing loans in certain areas (outlined in red on maps), usually based on race. People who lived in those areas were denied the opportunity to buy their homes by discriminatory lending practices. In 1977 the Community Reinvestment Act required banks to use the same lending criteria in all neighborhoods, not surprisingly, shortly thereafter people and investors started buying property in formerly redlined neighborhoods.
Seriously dude, you're not adding anything to this conversation.
This is the nosiest, most judgmental town. Why do we tolerate the santimonious fools who denigrate others because those others want to buy a place and be left alone? It's all good if you want to join the local food co-op, but how can you pass judgment on the hermits of the world? That someone doesn't make it out to ANC meetings doesn't mean he should have his ghetto pass revoked. Ridiculous posturing.
I hate to make this all about the Great Argonaut Chalk Incident, but on the WP online comment blog with the WP article author several people wrote in to say that the WP account was highly inaccurate. The posts came (supposedly) from an actual eyewitness and from someone in the (supposedly) offending chalk-happy party.
I wasn't there, so I don't know. But it's worth noting.
Hill-rat..thank you both for your condecension and dismissal. Yes I am familiar with the concept of "redlining" and yes overall I can see where you are coming from. That throughout the period of industrialization black people were systematically denied the mobility and progress that other groups took advantage of. So in this period of post-industrial competition they as a group are in a unique position.
Hill Rat: Your comment about redlining has some validity, but the obvious question is why was there no investment in the community post 1977? Property here was beyond dirt cheap in the 80s and 90s, and redlining was illegal for those decades (even though we know in practice discriminatory lending still exists). So why no investment in H Street?
"Black don't feel any need to hide their racial antagonism towards Whites."
No, it's counter to your point. The Blacks that don't feel the need to be subtle about their feelings are obvious. Those that are subtle aren't obvious. I can think of lots of examples from my personal life. But this is true for people in general, not just blacks or whites.
We differ over whether we consider all racist blacks obvious. You do, I don't.
I'd suggest my years of exposure to DC government shows real institutionalized racism against whites. No, it's not written policy. But it sure as heck is unwritten policy.
So you're comparing codified racism, written into the Constitution, re-affirmed by the courts, and enforced by government at all levels with indifferent clerks at the DMV?
"So why no investment in H Street?"
I would say probably because of a mix of white racism and black classism.
Re: chalk-on-table incident, there was a post on the Washingtonpost.com chat about the article, where the incident was described from another perspective as being pretty much made up by the aggrieved woman, and part misunderstanding. I thought it sounded too ridiculous to be true!
Re: #47
You left out the most important part of my quote where I said "As a general rule Blacks don't feel any need to hide their racial antagonism towards Whites."
No, HillRat, you made that comparison. I never said the two were comparable in scope.
And it's not clerk indifference. It's hostility toward whites, manifest in many ways by DC government officials and employees. And let's not even mention the racist policies of a lot of ANC's, like the notorious Leroy Thorpe. Try being a white guy in his ANC (although I understand technically he was voted out but he still runs it illegally) and getting any sort of zoning variance or whatnot.
How is white racism responsible for lack of investment in H Street in the 70s and 80s? Same question for black classism.
Hillrat- are you saying that "lack" or civil behaviour is justified?
90% of the people that live noth of H are still black.
This liberal white guilt thing that you hipster morans have sickens me.
Get a life and get over it!
"So the area around the new stadium is now "South Capitol Hill?" I guess "Navy Yard" or "Waterfront" isn't sexy enough."
Hey ghettoburbs and all:
It is actually going to be called Capitol Riverfront. WP should really keep up with the times!
:-)
www dot capitolriverfront dot com
"So the area around the new stadium is now "South Capitol Hill?" I guess "Navy Yard" or "Waterfront" isn't sexy enough."
Hey ghettoburbs and all:
It is actually going to be called Capitol Riverfront. WP should really keep up with the times!
:-)
Go to this website:
capitolriverfront dot com
Re: chalk-on-table incident, there was a post on the Washingtonpost.com chat about the article, where the incident was described from another perspective as being pretty much made up by the aggrieved woman, and part misunderstanding. I thought it sounded too ridiculous to be true!
Right, because there are no racist White assholes spewing bile anywhere in DC!! Of course it must be those intolerable Blacks who are responsible for the whole "misunderstanding".
Please tell me your post was a joke that I didn't get.
"How is white racism responsible for lack of investment in H Street in the 70s and 80s? Same question for black classism."
This is just my sense- I've no strict scientific data to back it up. But I'd say that the white money didn't see the point of investing in a black residential/commercial area, and that the black money was too busy escaping the DC drama of that time.
Re: 51
I guess I still don't see a truly remarkable distinction.
No, HillRat, you made that comparison. I never said the two were comparable in scope.
You called the perceived problems of DC Gov't "institutional racism"; I'm merely pointing out real world examples of institutional racism and comparing them to what you're talking about.
Rather than re-invent the wheel, check out this definition of institutional racism: www.eraseracismny.org/html/whatis/whatis.php
I recognize that this definition does contain bits and pieces of what you're talking about vis-a-vis Whites and DC govt, but overall I simply don't believe what you're experiencing is institutional racism.
Otavio - Thanks for the link, but for future reference as long as you leave off the h t t p : / / you can leave your URLs intact.
This discussion has become ridiculous. I've lived here too long for this sort of thing to seem new. It happens all over the city (U st, Logan Circle, etc) and everyone goes scattering to make themselves seem like they're on the side of good, all the while the real victim go scattering to find someplace to live. There are jerks in every color. I've seen white people do wrong, I've seen black people do wrong. Neither side has the exclusive on intolerance. The point is, why haven't we learned from past instances a way to make this process more humane?
Some of the posts above are interesting, some are really sad. My heart goes out to the people who are victims of violence at the hands of others, especially those of you who were targeted because of your race. I wish that didn't happen to you Hillman. But you are in the unique position of knowing exactly what it feels like not only to be singled out for your race, something that happens to a lot of people I'm guessing, but to feel as powerless as many people of color feel to stop it.
I also think some people ought to feel guilty. It's ok to be a hermit, but what causes a lot of the friction is when people pretend they didn't get theirs by taking from someone else.
Hill Rat: Your comment about redlining has some validity, but the obvious question is why was there no investment in the community post 1977? Property here was beyond dirt cheap in the 80s and 90s, and redlining was illegal for those decades (even though we know in practice discriminatory lending still exists). So why no investment in H Street?
Tough to say for sure, but I think Mark's contention that Whites had written the area off and Blacks that had two nickels to rub together left the area for PG County as soon as they could is as good an explanation as any. Also, you need some real vision and a good amount of cash to pull off what Joe E. did.
In all this talk about gentrification people forget about guys like Alonzo that opened up Rhythm & Beans coffee shop that closed about six months ago. The coffee wasn't great and the hours were somewhat irregular, but Alonzo took a gamble that didn't pay off for him personally. He just happens to be a guy I met, but there are plenty more folks out there like him.
Hillrat, your divisive and intolerant posts are just adding fuel to the fire and inflaming black-white tension. The fact is, the premise of much of the initial anger and outrage here is simply not true. Yes, there are white racists, but the incident as described that has riled everyone up was suspiciously way over-the-top to begin with, and is now being denied. And the problem of black racist and violence against white residents is real, not imagined. We should be venting our outrage against the racist, hate-spewing religious orators at 8th and H, which is a real and documented problem.
You are welcome, Hill Rat. And, thanks for the suggestion about the URL's
Gimmie a break! I've had much worse hurled at me than a comment about housing prices! Are former City Paper employees now at the Post? Because I've seen this "White Man Bad, Black Man Good No Matter What" nonsense before.
Hillman,
you keep talking about racism by city employees. Can you give some concrete examples? Quite frankly, I've never experienced anything like that in my dealings with the city. I've been surprised, in fact, by the relative pleasantness of my interactions. The DMV employees, for instance, has been a lot nicer than the ones in Florida.
PS I'm also white.
Hillrat, your divisive and intolerant posts are just adding fuel to the fire and inflaming black-white tension.
Ted - Yes, obviously my work-avoidance ramblings on DCist are the real problem with race relations in DC.
Hillman and I are having some back and forth about what constitutes institutional racism, who cares? We've kept it civil and tried to listen to each other's points (I think), it's called debate; you should try it sometime instead of believing everything you read on the internet like it was the word of God.
Gimmie a break! I've had much worse hurled at me than a comment about housing prices! Are former City Paper employees now at the Post? Because I've seen this "White Man Bad, Black Man Good No Matter What" nonsense before.
I think the phrase "your black ghetto neighborhood" is about more than housing prices.
And as for the "White Man Bad, Black Man Good" angle, WTF are you referring to? Did you you actually read the article?
"Ted - Yes, obviously my work-avoidance ramblings on DCist are the real problem with race relations in DC."
Well, no, but it's not helping the situation, either.
I think these types of discussion excite passionate debate and discussion. Because it's one of the central predicaments of American society. My position is simply to make progress we must be willing to look at and approach these problems squarely and candidly and that candor has been sacrificed for p.c. apologetics. That's not however to diminish IN ANY WAY the injustices that have and still impact the situation.
Ted, I beg to differ. Hill Rat is making sensible and thoughtful posts.
Hill Rat,
You defined "institutional racism" as requiring a Constitutional aspect, upheld by the courts, &tc, &tc... So can we understand your position to be that there is no institutional racism in the US today? If so, "Hooray!"
[Not asserting anything, just curious about your position.]
All of these problems can be solved very easily by doing the following:
1)Make blanket statements about black people being generally racist. Of course, you could just scream "I know you are, but what am I?", but then people might see you as reactionary and overly defensive.
2) Ban sales of single beers and malt beverages. This will help with the crime rate, the crumbling schools and infrastructure, HIV, and as I now understand rising illiteracy rates.
3) Ban black people? I'm not completely sure but I think we could argue that it is nothing personal, just a "quality of life" issue.
I think the phrase "your black ghetto neighborhood" is about more than housing prices.
I think if you read the WaPo chat transcript, you'll find that at least two people contested the article's version of events based on their eyewitness experience of the incident.
I agree, when I read the article initially I thought the anecdote was a little "too good to be true." Where were the other patrons of the bar? Having been to the Argonaut a few times, it seemed pretty unlikely to me that there's no *way* someone would be yelling racist classist crap like that across the room. No matter how drunk they were.
Re: #71
Ted - I disagree, all I'm doing here is being honest; I'm not pulling punches and I'm not softening up my language to keep people comfortable. If you don't like it, you can kiss my delicious ass. At least half the problem with race relations in this country is that people won't be honest; not with themselves and not with each other.
White people won't be honest about their sense of entitlement. Hillman is so indignant about his treatment at the hands of city workers, but does he ever consider why is he is so outraged? Could it be that as a White man he doesn't think he should ever have to shit from anyone least of all from a Black clerk at DCRA or wherever? [editor's note: I'm just using you as an example Hillman, don't get all distraught and break out the flamethrower]
Black people won't be honest about how often they accept the unacceptable in the name of racial solidarity. Sell rocks and shoot each other in the street, but don't let any White people move on this block 'cause that will be the end of our neighborhood and culture!
For the most part, I think Chris Lee is a knucklehead but he is correct that we have sacrificed honesty and candor in the name of political correctness. So if nothing else, I appreciate the fact that Chris says what's on his mind during these conversations.
how 'bout;
1. let the market operate freely. Property is of value. it should go to the highest bidder.
2. a reasonable and humane low-income housing policy along with government assistance to those who seek to improve their lot
3. public disdain for any type of disparagement based on race, sexual orientation or religion
These are the foundations of both a free economy and a civil society.
I think if you read the WaPo chat transcript, you'll find that at least two people contested the article's version of events based on their eyewitness experience of the incident.
I understand that the account of the incident is disputed, however nicole was referring to the Post's version of the incident when she characterized it as "a comment about housing prices", and that's what I was responding to.
You defined "institutional racism" as requiring a Constitutional aspect, upheld by the courts, &tc, &tc... So can we understand your position to be that there is no institutional racism in the US today? If so, "Hooray!"
Nay. I was just listing those particular examples as the most egregious and undeniable instances of institutional racism.
Ted,
I think we're on different planets. I don't see anything Hill Rat has posted (in this thread or countless others) as being either divisive or intolerant. In fact, I would say he's one of the posters on DCist who provides the most consistently interesting posts.
The best part of the chat transcript is the part where someone wrote in about their experience with "reverse racism, if you will." Do people really think that if it's black-on-white (or anything that's not white-on-someone-else) that it needs to be qualified that way? Racism is racism, no matter who it's coming from or who it's against. This idea that it's only really racism if it's perpetrated by whites is puzzling to me.
I don't see anything Hill Rat has posted (in this thread or countless others) as being either divisive or intolerant. In fact, I would say he's one of the posters on DCist who provides the most consistently interesting posts.
Awwww, I'm getting all misty over here.
I witnessed the chalk episode. I have the notes from my journal somewhere around here. Ah, here's the page:
This was the final straw. "I don't know why we keep putting buckets of chalk out on the tables, Joe! Folks just keep writing on them!" She called across the room, "Hey, y'all! Stop writing on the table!"
A drunken sorority girl looked up boozily. "I have spent $500 g's on a beautiful mansion in your black ghetto neighborhood, so please speak to me in properly enunciated english," she said, reaching for another piece of chalk from the bucket supplied, and began embellishing the litany of racial epithets on the table in front of her.
The crowd of white gentrifiers packing the Argonaut began to laugh derisively, and started to chant the Fed's overnight rate, growing louder, and louder...
Seriously, Unlikely? That can't be true. I'd hate to believe I live in a world that sits back while someone writes those sorts of things and does nothing to stop her. That's just horrible. What provoked the "sorority girl" to write those things before she was sked to stop by the person who dropped the "final straw" on her back?
HillRat:
Arguing semantics is sortof useless. Suffice it to say that DC city employees often treat white people like crap because they are white. Call it institutional racism, call it just being a butthead, call it garden variety racism, whatever. That doesn't make it any less real.
Does it equate to two centuries of astonishingly bad treatment of blacks at the hands of some whites in the US? Absolutely not. But so many deny it exists, and I'm just saying that it does.
As for examples: I've routinely heard permits employees make stunning anti-Jewish remarks when reviewing paperwork submitted by someone with a Jewish name (sorry, I forget the name of the office, it's the first office you have to go to at 941 N Cap, on the first floor). Remarks like "Jews have all the money and are ruining it for poor blacks in DC. Someone ought to do something about that" and "theres a reason nobody likes Jews", etc.. I've had rent control clerks (and higher officials) tell me that since I'm white I obviously have plenty of money and need to start considering lowering my rents on black residents. I've had rent control clerks tell me the reason for rent control is to protect blacks from all the selfish white landlords, and that while maybe not all white landlords are evil, the majority are, and it's a rarity when you find one that isn't, because whites have never suffered, etc.
I've had any number of black men at the various permits and zoning offices tell me (quite friendly, by the way) that they as black men are often privy to the unguarded speech of black DC officials, and that the perceived race of the applicant is often a factor in approval, hassle, etc.
I've seen numerous rent control and DPW / permits clerks treat blacks in a friendly and professional way, and treat every white in a surly, arrogant way, literally barking at them and treating them like small children, openly mocking them when they have even the slightest question. Coincidence? Possibly. But not likely.
I've overheard rent control clerks conferring with tenants who have questions about their rent or rent laws. And the clerk will flat out ask if the landlord is white, or they'll ask leading questions that are obviously meant to elicit a response indicating the race of the landlord. The most common is "Is your landlord from the neighborhood", with a wink and a nod. Now how exactly is that relevant?
Given this type of behavior, does anyone actually think that permits and various paperwork permissions are given to white applicants the same as to black applicants in DC?
I've seen employees in the zoning office (the room where you look up plats and such) bend over backwards to help black patrons, and literally ignore the very next white patron, dismissing them curtly with a "it's over there" wave of the hand to the very confusing DC platte books, while almost holding the black patron by the hand, looking up address after address for them, offering to call them when their paperwork is ready, etc. No such offers are made to the white patron.
I'm not saying it happens all the time, or even the majority of the time. In fact, I'd estimate it's less than 20% of the time. But it sucks for you if you're in that 20%.
I haven't been to DMV for years so I can't speak to professionalism there. My few experiences there were actually fine.
Is this in the same ballpark as lynchings and slavery? Of course not. But it happens nonetheless.
At the same time, I've had terrific experiences with a lot of DC employees, especially recently.
Hill Rat: I'm not indignant when I'm treated like crap because I'm white. I'm mostly saddened. But, yes, I think I deserve to be treated like a human being by city employees, regardless of their race or position. I don't think that's too much to ask. And I don't consider that entitlement.
Do any of you people have jobs and how do the rest of us land cushy jobs where we can spend all day ranting at each other? I'm guessing you all work at "think-tanks".
I don't think not wanting to invest in a high crime area where two of every three storefronts is boarded up makes you a racist. There's only so much people are going to risk to open up a retail business. Why should anyone open up a business where the risk of getting shot in the head is high when they can just as easily open up the same business in a much safer suburban location, where walk-by traffic is nonexistent, and where one of every two people coming in off the street is a panhandler, not a customer? That business decision does not make you racist. Or classist, for that matter.
White, black, latino, asian, we are all racist in our own ways.
I think we are all outraged by bad behavior and slights, especially when it involves are loved ones and children. But my, it has to sting when you are judged by the color of your skin.
I am usually very conservative politcally. But, I must admit it, (and I am a white man) it is MUCH harder to be black in America than white or any other color. You DO have to be twice as good as the next guy, especially the white guy.
My kid goes to a DC public school. He is one of five white kids in a class of 45. I want him to experience the chaos, the lack of privledge and the mixing of all types of nationalities and skin color at such an institution. It is a wonderful place full of great kids and dedicated, loving parents.
When I discuss our DC public school experiences with white neighbors (always a private school goer in my white neighborhood) they speak in code. What is it like going to school with all those brown kids? They can't be well-behaved! They can't be smart, can they?
I have a black business partner. He makes just as much money as I do. We like to play a game when he is looking for an apartment. I show up with his application. I get the apartment as the white guy. Then he shows up with my application, making the same money. Ooops. The black guy with my application never gets a call back.
I am telling you, this is all sadly true.
We should rejoice we talk like this in America. It still is the most accepting place on the planet as a whole. Speak your feelings about race. Be honest. Be open and be tolerant (this goes for all races). We can get to a color blind society. But trust me, we aren't close yet.
Actually, I do think I'm entitled to polite treatment from city employees. It's my tax dollars that they are wasting while they treat me like crap. If that's entitlement, consider me guilty.
Back to the WP article. Did anyone else find it's tone odd? I found it to be all negative - like the author was bound and determined to find conflict. She claimed in her chat today that her goal was neutrality. From the writing style and anectdotes chosen, I find that a bit hard to believe.
www.nomorelyrics.net/song/143479.html
"We should rejoice we talk like this in America. It still is the most accepting place on the planet as a whole."
Sorry - that statement is just not true. It's the American myth of "we're the freest country in the world," and it's complete, utter bullshit.
As a gay man, I find the US to be one of the least accepting industrialized countries on the planet. I've lived in Canada, Spain, and the UK, and each one of those places offers me a better quality of life, not to mention more legal protections and greater respect from society at large.
I cringe when people bring up that cliche. It's just so far from my everyday experience. Please just cut it out.
HM - I don't think *I* questioned the veracity of your statements regarding your treatment at the hands of city employees, what I do question is whether or not it rises to the level of institutional racism.
Black people had to be enslaved, brought here from Africa, lynched, beaten, raped, and discriminated against in every way for 300+ years before the term "institutional racism" was even coined. Now as soon as a White man gets shit on a couple of times by a dumbass Black clerk at DCRA it's "institutional racism". Does this help you understand why I object to you using the term?
www.nomorelyrics.net/song/143479.html
Hilarious!
Spain is a racist place. They are still making ape sounds at black players at soccer games.
Trying being black there. No love for the brother.
Outside of Toronto and Vancouver, Canada doesn't come close to the U.S. melting pot
And outside of London, you better run if you are black and see a bunch of young white guys walking towards you.
Hillrat..your attitude of "privileged" victimhood is part of the problem. Maybe HM should have said "entrenched racist resentment" instead of "institutionalized racism". "Entrenched resentment justified (held in place) by a sense of priveleged victimhood."
HillRat: My apologies. My email detailing my experiences was for the benefit of another poster. I should have made that clear.
No, your explanation doesn't help much. I never compared the scope of my treatment to the examples you cite. But city employees treating people different based on their skin color is in fact institutional racism. It's simply a matter of degree. The concepts behind them remain the same.
Hillrat..your attitude of "privileged" victimhood is part of the problem.
chis lee, your inability to make sense is part of the problem.
Looking at it that way, Hillman, of course.
But the place didn't get 2/3 boarded up or become so dangerous overnight. Lots of time, and many personal decisions during that time, went into the wholesale abandonment of vast areas of DC. I'm certain race and class played a big part of them. Also, certainly, so did the then-growing appreciation of suburban living. Though race and class certainly played into that, too.
sqdc- Thanx for putting me in my place.
sorry to be so glib, but i think that jab at Hill Rat was both insensitive and preposterous, and it doesn't add to the discussion.
I don't claim to be an expert on H Street history, but didn't the MLK riots act as the major force for creating the boarded up streetfronts on H Street, in quite the cataclysmic event, from a retail shopping point of view? I'd say the aftermath of that created an undesireable business environment pretty much quite literally overnight.
You are entitled to your opinion. As am I.
Canada - I found Montreal to be quite open minded and inviting, even if you don't speak French. Which, turns out, is not a made up language after all....
Hillrat..I enjoy sparring with you. I am against ad hominem attacks and withdraw any thing that comes across like that. I was trying to say there is a "psychology of priveleged victimhood" which I thinks motivates many minority groups in various ways.
"I don't claim to be an expert on H Street history, but didn't the MLK riots act as the major force for creating the boarded up streetfronts on H Street, in quite the cataclysmic event, from a retail shopping point of view? I'd say the aftermath of that created an undesireable business environment pretty much quite literally overnight."
Why debate ultimate and proximate causes? Sure, the MLK riots caused lots of people to leave, but that was 30 years ago. A lot has happened in the interim. For example, the older inner neighborhoods lost population and declined into stigmatized, largely-black, ghettos.
It's obvious, to me anyway, that race and class issues kept a lot of people (black and white) and their money (still green, the last time I checked) from returning.
The article really really piqued my curiousity about Catherine Fuller -- what happened to her??
From the Post, 2001:
On Oct. 1, 1984, Fuller, 48-year-old cleaning woman and mother of six, had set off to get a prescription with $50 in cash in a change purse tucked in her bra. She wound up, minus the cash, in an alley just off a busy Northeast street kicked and beaten to death. The horror of the crime was intensified when police said that this tiny woman who weighed less than 100 pounds was murdered by a swarm of gang members -- as many as 30 people. Her liver was shattered, four ribs broken, a lung punctured. A pipe stuck up her rectum pierced her intestine and penetrated 11 inches into her abdominal cavity. All of this happened while she was alive and -- according to police -- screaming for help while her assailants held her down and cursed her.
People, let's not forget the real issue here - how BADLY those 2 articles were written! My fav part was the "lady tell your daughter she doesnt have to be afraid of us". FUCK that sounds so fake!!!! Did Emilio Estevez show up next and teach the H St youth how to play hockey???
Let it out. Purge. Tell the "troof" dammit. ;)People don't want to be honest about the heart of darkness of ghetto society. I was just watching "Court TV" and in truth human aggression and depravity exists in every class level, ethnic strata etcetera, but let's be honest about the degree of it in our inner cities.
The Catherine Fuller murder galvanized the district like nothing I'd seen since. It's not entirely clear to me anymore how young the children were who committed that atrocity, but I think several were in elementary school.
Hill Rat: I find it interesting that you dismiss my recounting of racist behavior on the part of DC city workers as insignificant, as "clerical indifference", as something I should just ignore. I can't help but notice that the same sort of rationales have been used by white poeple to dismiss the poor treatment of blacks over the decades.
I can't help but notice that the same sort of rationales have been used by white poeple to dismiss the poor treatment of blacks over the decades.
I think one of the worst side effects of the politically correct watering-down of the major messages of the civil rights movement is that many people now use the rhetorical technique of hypothetically reversing the races of participants in any kind of scenario involving prejudice and equating that double-standard with the systemic discrimination experienced by non-whites.
In doing so, you ignore social, historical and political context. It's a misleading, intellectually lazy and dialogue-stifling technique.
So please, no more "what if it was the other way around" or "that's the same thing whites said about blacks" scenarios.
The new paradigm that we are in the process of creating is one of universal human dignity. In the old paradigm every one has a beef. 30 million white europeans dead in WWII alone, the trans-atlantic slave trade, slaughter of native americans, the jewish holocaust..etc..the ideal of universal human dignity HAS NEVER EXISTED..it must be created and honored in YOUR actions. The cop out of .." but MY suffering is more important than YOURS.." is an obstacle to that ideal. Everyone must be responsible for the past but conscious of the future that we must CREATE.
SQDC:
Nonsense. Racism is racism, pure and simple. The core concept is the same. Either it's wrong or it isn't. The degree or severity is worth noting, but the core concept remains the same.
What is worth noting is that a lot of people in DC will tell you that blacks are incapable of racism because they are black. As long as we have people that think that then my points are worth mentioning.
Let's not forget that DC is a majority black town. And the DC government is majority black. So by definition the ideas that racism toward blacks by whites is systemic in DC is in question, at least at the local government level (you could still argue, of course, that much of what happens to DC in Congress has a racial element to it).
In fact, again by definition, the concept of systemic racism from blacks toward whites is a distinct possibility in DC.
And why is this 'dialog-stifling'? And it certainly isn't misleading. As for intellectually lazy, that's not really true either.
What I found interesting in the references Hill Rat gave to the definition of institutional racism was that the website defined it ONLY as white on black racism. They didn't even consider any other possibility. That to me says a lot.
And if you really want to muddy the waters, let's chit chat about how some blacks in DC treat gay people. Or is that yet another subject that's off limits?
No, your explanation doesn't help much. I never compared the scope of my treatment to the examples you cite. But city employees treating people different based on their skin color is in fact institutional racism. It's simply a matter of degree. The concepts behind them remain the same.
Hillman - When you use the term "institutional racism" to describe your treatment, then you're comparing your situation to that which led to the creation of the term. Hell, by your own admission the type of treatment you're talking about happens less than 20% of the time. 1 out of 5? That falls within the statistical range of random assholes in my estimation.
You're crying a river of salty tears about "institutional racism", but how often does it endanger your life? I'm shit-in-my-pants scared every time I get pulled over by the police because I know full well that "institutional racism" will allow a nervous rookie to shoot me as many times as he deems necessary and not only will he not go to jail, he'll probably keep his job as a police officer too. I'd trade that fear for rude, unhelpful, and hostile clerks at DCRA 100 times out of 100.
No one is saying that your shabby, racist treatment at the hands of recalcitrant city workers is right or that it doesn't suck. What I am saying is that if "institutional racism" is a 100 point scale, then what you're experiencing is maybe in the 10-15 point range.
I guess what you (as a White person) don't really understand is that I (as a Black person) expect a certain amount of shitty raced based treatment as a part of life; it's not surprising and after a while it stops being galling or upsetting, it's just something that happens. I guess that's why I'm not that sympathetic to your situation.
No, a 20% chance of encountering racist behavior is not 'withing the statistical range of random assholes'. It's wrong, and it should stop.
And I don't know that it doesn't happen much more than 20% of the time. I just see the obvious signs of of it 20%. How many times does it happen, only more subtle?
And, now that you bring it up, racism has in fact endangered my life. The most obvious example is when two black men held a gun to my genitals and taunted me because I'm white.
And at least some percentage of the black on white crime in DC is race-based. So racism has the potential to endanger my life literally every day in DC.
But since you seem to be hung up on the term 'institutional', I'd be happy to use another term, even though institutional is actually much more concise.
How about 'government-approved' and 'accepted by many but not all of the majority black citizens'?
Hill Rat: Statistically, I'd trade you the possibility of you getting shot by a cop because of your race with the possibility of me getting shot by street thugs because of my race pretty much any day.
I'm not saying it's not possible. Lord knows it is. But statistically my scenario is much more likely.
The difference here is that I understand that things like white cops shooting innocent blacks in traffic stops is a real possibility. I think a lot of blacks in DC have yet to admit that their fellow blacks are even capable of racism, much less violence based on race (or sexual orientation, which adds another level of violence to the equation that you as a straight black man are not going to encounter).
"entrenched racist resentment toward whites as a reaction to victimization by white institutional racism" leading to the display of various levels of anti social behaviour at times violent.
Hillman,
The term "racism" does have multiple definitions (and of course the definition varies depending on who you ask). Whether it's as simple as "racism is racism" really has to do with whether we're defining racism as an attitude held by individuals or as a political and social system of discrimination. If you're using the former definition, it doesn't really matter in which direction the prejudice flows, and this is the definition you are using.
If you're using the latter definition, it's not so simple, and quite frankly, if we have a goal of a just society, this is the definition that is more useful.
Issues of local political power, as you mentioned, are important, but they do also function in a larger societal context, and in particular in regard to issues like H ST NE, economic inequality is a critical part of the discussion.
I don't mean this to sound personal or rude, but you're talking about prejudice and hassles at the permit office - I don't condone that behavior, but at the end of the day, you're still the landlord and not the tenant, right? We are ALL part of a society with varied and intricate layers of privilege and disparity, and I think that we have to be honest with ourselves about both the ways that we are aggrieved as well as the ways that we have privilege. It is not simple, and that's why I think any attempt to hypothetically reverse roles is harmful.
Correction:
Actually it was three black men that held a gun to my genitals while taunting me because of my race and letting me know in no uncertain terms that they were contemplating shooting off my pecker because I was white, and if that wasn't enough they may just go ahead and kill me outright so there'd be 'one less white boy' (sorry for the correction, but I try to be a stickler for accuracy).
In 35 years of existence (and the better part of two decades as an "out" gay guy), the only times I've ever been afraid for my safety were when I was near black people.
I have no problems walking around 85-90% of Manhattan holding hands with a guy; I've done it in Washington Heights and Inwood and gotten a kiss on the street in front of random Dominicans, and no problems. I'd never do that here because I'm afraid some ghetto thugs would take it as a cue to jump us and beat the shit out of us.
The thing about DC that I hate the most (outside of the fact that I can't find a decent bagel in this city to save my life) is that I find myself feeling very jumpy whenever I see black people. Obviously, it's kinda hard to NOT do that in DC, which means I'm extremely nervous walking around in the streets, especially after dark. Hell, I've had kids throw stuff at me in the Metro during rush hour - I can only imagine what might happen if they find me on a deserted street in Columbia Heights at 10pm.
I'm white; I'm gay, and I feel like I have a huge, fluorescent target painted on my back in this town. If it weren't for grad school, I so wouldn't be here.
SQDC:
I don't really get your point. You seem to be suggesting that since I've worked my ass off for 20 years and bought property in a city when no one else would, literally sacrificing any sort of fun and decent life for a decade so I'd be the first one in my family to actually have something, I somehow should have to put up with racist behavior?
And I define the racism as both personal and government-approved in DC.
And I'm talking about much more than racism in DC government. See my post about my wee white pecker potentially being blown off because I'm white....
And, now that you bring it up, racism has in fact endangered my life.
That's not institutional racism though, those are just random assholes. You can't have a whole thread about institutional racism and then start talking about the garden variety racism of individuals when it suits your rhetorical purposes.
"Government approved" doesn't cut it either, because what you're experiencing isn't gov't approved. It may be condoned by some of the individuals that make up the gov't, but it's not part of the law of the land like "separate but equal".
We've gone all around the Maypole on this and it seems obvious to me that no matter what argument I make, you're going to continue to pout and stomp your feet about the injustice of it all just like with being "smoked on". You're like a White Al Sharpton; there's a kernel of legitimacy to your beef, but then you blow it way out of proportion until it becomes impossible to take you seriously.
In 35 years of existence (and the better part of two decades as an "out" gay guy), the only times I've ever been afraid for my safety were when I was near black people.
I have no problems walking around 85-90% of Manhattan holding hands with a guy; I've done it in Washington Heights and Inwood and gotten a kiss on the street in front of random Dominicans, and no problems. I'd never do that here because I'm afraid some ghetto thugs would take it as a cue to jump us and beat the shit out of us.
The thing about DC that I hate the most (outside of the fact that I can't find a decent bagel in this city to save my life) is that I find myself feeling very jumpy whenever I see black people. Obviously, it's kinda hard to NOT do that in DC, which means I'm extremely nervous walking around in the streets, especially after dark. Hell, I've had kids throw stuff at me in the Metro during rush hour - I can only imagine what might happen if they find me on a deserted street in Columbia Heights at 10pm.
I'm white; I'm gay, and I feel like I have a huge, fluorescent target painted on my back in this town. If it weren't for grad school, I so wouldn't be here.
Apologies for the multiple posts. DC's comments server, as usual, sucks ass.
As for your suggestion that I have some sort of privilege, that would seem to indicate to me that you've never owned rental property in DC. All the legal rights are with the tenant, and landlords in DC frequently get taken advantage of by tenants.
And you would seem to suggest with your assumption of my 'privilege' that because I'm a property owner I just sit at home and count my piles of cash. That's not really how it works. I'm in debt to the bank up to my nipples. Any downturn in the housing market and I'm bankrupt. Just a few tenants that want to take advantage of the stunningly stupid rent laws in DC can cost me tens of thousands of dollars. I work my ass off, and I never get to take a vacation. I'm sometimes literally wrist-deep in someone else's crap, sometimes left out of spite because of that same concept you voiced - that somehow I as a property owner am 'privileged'.
I don't really get your point. You seem to be suggesting that since I've worked my ass off for 20 years and bought property in a city when no one else would, literally sacrificing any sort of fun and decent life for a decade so I'd be the first one in my family to actually have something, I somehow should have to put up with racist behavior?
That's not even close to my point. I'm not saying anything you should be defensive about, or that you should feel any guilt or put up with prejudice. I'm just saying that in a society and a city with the kinds of disparity and the kind of tensions that we are discussing in this thread, that we all need to be honest and thoughtful about our place in it, and to consider both the ways we are aggrieved and the ways that we are privileged, and make an effort to understand people in different social positions.
All over this site, you seem hung up on the ways you feel discriminated against, without a shred of introspection regarding the ways that you experience privilege.
So complaining about people threatening to blow my pecker off because I'm white is "pouting and stomping my feet"? Really? Let's see that happen to you and see if you 'pout and stomp your feet'.
No, they aren't 'random assholes'. They are doing it because it's acceptable in at least part of their social circle.
You keep saying 'random assholes' like race has nothing do with it.
That's just like saying when a white person treats a black person like crap based on race that the white person isn't racist, they are just a 'random asshole', so we shouldn't even consider addressing the underlying reason for the behavior.
And the topic was racism in general. I never limited it to 'institutional racism' as you define it.
And, yes, that behavior in DC government is approved, at least tacitly. It's gone on for decades, with no real effort to stop it. That's approval. Of course they aren't stupid enough to make it written policy. But, then, white racists aren't stupid enough to make it written policy anymore either. That doesn't make it any less real.
Ball o' confuu-sion...
Ah, the old 'blown out of proportion' argument.
Again, that exact same phrase is commonly used by whites to justify white against black racism.
And what part did I blow out of proportion?
Hillman, you just don't get it. Get in your Lexus and go back to your horsefarm in Greenwich CT. Don't talk to ME about suffrin' an' struggle.
Actually, the 'privilege' idea is sortof ironic in this instance.
My father was fired in the 60s because he felt he had to speak out in favor of equality for blacks. He was unable to work in that field for some time because of his views. My mother was 'shunned at the grocery' because of it. For those of you not from small towns, this is the equivelant of social suicide...
The additional irony? The profession in question was preaching in a Christian church.
He never fully recovered his position, and our family was destitute for quite some time. There were other issues as well, but that was a contributing factor. My pop literally picked up trash by the side of the road to support his family as a result of his decision.
One of the reasons I did not come from 'privilege' is because my parents made a conscious effort to sacrifice their income and social standing to correct what they saw as an injustice.
So it always strikes me as sortof funny when people bring up the 'privilege' argument as a mitigating factor in race relations.
chris lee, that was an incredibly assholic thing to say.
Fuck off with your suffrin' and struggle. Sounds like you could use some more of it.
SQDC:
I'm not doubting that privilege exists in society, especially in capitalist societies.
But I'm curious as to exactly what privilege you think I have in DC.
As for my tone on this site, no one would read a blog where we all complimented each other on how swell everything is. That's what press releases and yearbook signings are for. Blogs are most useful when you are hashing out actual issues.
I'll admit I can get a bit abrasive, and for that I apologize (both to you and to Hill Rat). But I'm sick of people sugarcoating shitty behavior towards others. I'm not suggesting that's what you are doing in this instance. I'm just saying it's an epidemic, especially in DC.
As for understanding people in different social situations, you are absolutely correct. Everyone has a different life experience.
But nothing justifies holding a gun to someone's genitals. And nothing justifies city employees treating people differently based on race.
And the fact that many people in DC refuse to acknowledge that blacks can be just as racist as whites is a very real matter, and we are being dishonest when we don't address it.
Jason - That was Chris Lee's misguided attempt sarcasm/being facetious, he's actually on Hillman's side in this argument.
As for your statement about being nervous around Blacks, get the fuck over it. The overwhelming majority of Black people are doing the same thing you're doing, struggling to make a living and trying to make it through the day.
Also, there are no good bagels in DC that I've been able to find; I gave up after looking for two years. It's been so long since I had one, I can't tell the difference between good and bad any more.
Jason and Hillrat..lighten up you phonies. I think and hope, Hillman got it.
Hillman,
I don't intend the term "privilege" to imply anything about your personal background. I don't know you. Your parents' sacrifices are honorable.
I was also careful to emphasize that social inequality is extremely complex and is not as simple as one individual having an advantage in all situations over another because of his or her race. Most of it is all gray area.
My problem with this discussion is that you don't seem to want to think about this in any other terms other than how embattled you are. You even describe owning property - something so many working people struggle to obtain - as a disadvantage.
I guess my question is, do you believe - regardless of your background and how hard you have worked - that in our society you have never derived any kind of advantage or benefit in any situation from being white?
Hillman,
Agreed w/ your last comment.
And the fact that many people in DC refuse to acknowledge that blacks can be just as racist as whites is a very real matter, and we are being dishonest when we don't address it.
Was that anyone here? I don't believe so, I have challenged your assertion that the customer service issues you have had with DC gov't employees rises to the level of what I would call "institutional racism".
Anyone who hasn't yet I would recommend Frantz Fanon's "Black Skins/ White Masks" it does a good job of breaking down the impact of colonial white racism on the African psyche.
chris lee - sorry if I didn't pick up on the sarcasm. My apologies.
HR - obviously I know the vast majority of black people in DC are not interested in slitting my throat and are just trying to live their lives like anybody else. But at the same time there is a sizable (how big, I don't know - 10%? 5%?) minority of blacks, particularly young men/boys, who actively seek out white people to fuck with/hurt. In just six months in DC, I've met FAR more people who have been mugged, robbed at gunpoint, beaten up, etc., than I EVER HAVE in my entire life, both in Chicago and NY, combined. So I freak out a little bit when I see young black guys coming toward me, especially in an isolated location, or if it's dark.
To say "get the fuck over it" is somewhat disingenuous, I think, but I may also have been overbroad in my first statement. I'm not nervous around old black women, or middle-aged black people in suits, or my coworkers. But I am worried when I see young black guys in hoodies hanging out in a pack on the sidewalk, particularly in my neighborhood (Columbia Heights) where all sorts of crazy shit goes down within blocks of where I happen to live.
Of course I'm not running past these people, hyperventilating, and screaming, "EEEEEEEEEEE" as I pass by, but I sure as hell am not going to walk right up to a group of 8 black guys on the stoop and give my date a goodnight kiss. When it comes to my personal safety, everything else takes a back seat.
good Jason, I invite you to be honest. Even to say F-you to me if you feel it. also in an honest discussion you are right in your fair assessment of the majority of blacks in dc being ordinary folks minding their own business but also the truth is their are a small percentage that DO want to slit your throat just because you are white. and to YOU it's that one out of a hundred that will make the MOST different when said throat is slitted.
Actually, HR, you came pretty close to dismissing them. You repeatedly downplayed the racist behavior I've seen, chalking it up to 'indifferent clerks' instead of to racism, saying I've blown it out of proportion, and suggesting that whites are never in real danger because of black racism even after being presented with at least one example I gave.
In fairness, you didn't deny it was theoretically possible. But you did have a pattern of suggesting it was anything other than racism, and certainly not serious.
I'll never win the Victim of the Most Racism prize. What whites did to blacks (and, well, to anyone that wasn't white) in the US is stunning in it's depth and inhumanity. I'd have to have some seriously fucked up stuff happen to me for an awful long time before I could even begin to compete with our unfortunate history.
But that's not to say that black on white racism is without serious consequence. And the entire nation seems afraid to even say it exists. And DC in particular seems to live in total denial over it.
We got off track a bit in the institutional racism definition, unfortunately.
And actually I enjoy posting with you. You usually have a wicked sense of humor (albeit no one beats Monkeyerotica for that), and you've usually got some valid points to make.
And I'll be the first to admit I can be annoying online. If it makes you feel any better I'm even more insufferable in person.
But, speaking of context, we have to try to remember that blogging isn't the totality of the person. We generally blog about one issue at a time, and as such it makes those with a strong opinion seem unhinged because of the sheer repetition of the points being made. And I quit trying to lighten up my posts with humor because Monkeyerotica does so much better at that.
We really appreciate the open, honest, and mostly civil debate on the H Street article that's gone on here in the comment thread. Obviously, there's much more to the story than the WaPo article covered.
However, since the discussion has moved well beyond the original topic and has narrowed in participation, it might be an appropriate time to take it to email, or better yet, the Argonaut over some beers.
Seriously, thanks again for the comments and the honest debate.
Oh, yes, I've benefitted from being white. But a lot of that benefit has been cancelled out by the fact that being white in DC is a distinct disadvantage in some circumstances.
And a lot more has been cancelled out by the fact that I'm gay in a predominately black city.
Many in the the black community in DC have some serious problems with how they treat gays. Of course so do many whites, but those in power in DC happen to be black, so I see the results more directly.
If you don't think this has real consequences, ask the owners of Be Bar how their experiences in getting a liquor license in DC went.
One very prevalent theory in certain black circles is that homosexuality is a sickness and character flaw brought on by the decadence of white people. And white gay men are the worst (apparently white lesbians are just fine, as long as they are hot). As such, it's perfectly acceptable to treat white gay men like crap.
As long as that is being taught then it makes my life in DC more difficult.
But, yes, in previous locales I certainly benefitted from being white. Probably more so than I'll ever know.
But I came to DC with practically nothing to my name, other than my willingness to work my ass off and take a risk when everyone else was bailing on the city. Since then, me being white has been a handicap.
As for the property ownership thing, I was probably a bit harsh on that. It's just that I am sick to death of people in DC bashing landlords. We're not all absentee slumlords, and for us small operators it's a lot of hard work, with absolutely no guarantee of a return. And we pretty routinely get crapped all over by tenants, in large part because DC has played the envy and class warfare card against landlords for decades. And a lot of that has been thinly veiled racism. So after a decade of hearing people trash talk landlords I'm probably a bit overly sensitive.
At least I could probably get a decent bagel in Greenwich....
Jason - I hear you about the groups of young thugs; but believe it or not, as a Black man, I'm actually in more danger than you are from groups of young thugs. Because I'm Black they're less afraid of what might happen if they rob or kill me, they figure if they kill me it won't even make the news and they're probably right.
When I say "get the fuck over it" I'm saying live your life. I was robbed at gunpoint in broad daylight walking home from work one day; it made me paranoid and jumpy for a while, but I had to get over that if I didn't want to kill myself or someone else why driving drunk because I was too paranoid to walk a few blocks at night.
Go see a shrink, take a class in Krav Maga, buy a gun, but for God's sake don't live your life in fear my friend!!
..and SCENE!! OK people that's a wrap :)
---- FINIS -----
Good conversation, guys. Seriously. Bottom line: Obey the Golden Rule, turn the other cheek, and lead by example, right?
Turn the other cheek? What, are you some sort of anti-gay comedian? Uh, gay-hater....
For the record, I'm joking, albeit not as well as MonkeyErotica.
See now why I don't joke online?
Hey HR, I feel you. I actually tease one of my friends in NY, who's black, that he's more scared of black people than any whites I know. But my friend (who looks frighteningly like a young Robert Guillaume) used to date a fey, waif-like Russian guy, and he says when they took the subway through Harlem he felt like the people there were looking for an excuse to beat the shit out of them.
It's not like I'm trembling in my boots in DC, but I'm aware of personal safety in a way I've never had to be before, even living in Chicago or the far upper wilds of Manhattan. And it disturbs me, particularly because there seems to be no effective way (police? hah!) to prevent the weirdness before it becomes something truly menacing.