April 16, 2007
33 Dead In Virginia Tech Shootings
Virginia Governor Tim Kaine has declared a state of emergency in the Commonwealth after 32 people, mostly students, were killed today in two shootings at Virginia Tech University. Dozens are still hospitalized with injuries ranging from minor to critical. The tragedy is being called the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.
Officials say the assailant, described as an Asian man in his 20s, took his own life after the second attack. The first shooting happened around 7:15 a.m. on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston Hall, a dorm that houses almost 900 students. Two people died in that shooting. Over two hours later, authorities say the same man opened fire at Norris Hall, an engineering and science building. 31 people died in that building, including the gunman.
As the story unfolded many students called into news stations to recount events. One man told MSNBC that he was in the classroom where the majority of victims were killed, describing a horrific scene of dead and wounded students.
After the first shootings, police told students and press that they had a suspect in custody. Officials now say that confusion arose from their belief that the dorm murders were an isolated incident, possibly stemming from a domestic dispute. Students have raised concerns about the lack of information after the first attack. Classes continued and it wasn't until the second shooting that the campus was locked down, with students and faculty told to stay away from windows as law enforcement swept through the university. Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said in a news conference this evening that over 36,000 students and faculty are on campus on any given day.
There are still many questions surrounding today's events. Police say they are still looking for a "person of interest" in the case, though they don't describe him as a suspect. Neither the victims, nor the shooter have been identified. During frequent press conferences held throughout the day, reporters also asked why officials didn't institute a campus-wide alert after the initial murders. It's also unclear whether police exchanged fire with the suspect. Local and state police are now working with the FBI and ATF to get a better picture of how the day unfolded. Obviously after such a shocking day, answers may be slow to surface.
Our hearts go out to everyone in the Virgina Tech community, including the many alumni and families living in our area.
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I have a lot of close friends at Tech, so I spent a lot of time this morning trying to call and make sure they were safe. Luckily, everyone I know is OK but now they're finding out about friends and classmates of theirs who were killed in the shootings today. It's had me freaked out all day. It's so terrible.
I thought something like this would be a clear argument for better gun control. However after seeing the comments from the WaPo and Digg.com, I see that the gun nuts simply see this as something that could have been prevented "if only more VA Tech students had guns to defend themselves with".
I don't have a lot of of hope that the gun issue will ever be solved in my lifetime.
London anyone?
Well the gunman was from Fairfax Co., of course, also according to the Collegiate Times, a number of other students from Fairfax Co. are among the dead and a very high up Civil Engineering professor in our department, so this is going to take a long time to play out.
London? Are you kidding? Is this the same London where they're having a stabbing-a-day?
It's a little too early for me to get in the gun control debate, which is about as useful as the mac-vs-pc debate. If anything, this is a clear argument for better mental health services.
Chris L - Is now really the time to start flacking for gun control?
Gun control isn't going to do anything to stop someone who wants to go on a killing spree; it may make it more difficult for them to get guns & ammo, but it won't stop them. With the number of guns on the street in this country if every gun manufacturer in the nation stopped making guns TODAY, there probably wouldn't be an appreciable impact on gun use in crimes for at least 5-10 years.
Leave the hysterical posturing and inappropriate timing to the politicians.
Monkeyrotica: That says "one knife-related incident a day". Turns out 93 of the 353 incidents were possession charges (bottom of article). It is not a stabbing per day. Also the article is about Suffolk, not London.
The Politico imitates obnoxious DCist commenters:
www.politico.com/news/stories/0407/3533.html
once a hokie, always a hokie
Politburo - Thanks for pointing that out. My point was that London's no crime-free paradise, since half of the 11,084 gun crimes in the UK ocurred in and around London. And with their gun ban, the kids seem to be going on knife sprees lately.
Gotta be careful when comparing gun-free/free-gun cultures. Japan has a universal ban; they also have one of the highest suicide rates. There's almost no violent crime in Switzerland, and they have mandatory firearms ownership.
Sorry, but guns do not kill people, it's "WAKOS" that kill people. as much as i understand your issue with guns, the fact is, someone will always be able to aquire a gun, there are lots of ways. What is really the issue is that there is so much animosity, so much hatred, greed, glorification of violence that we embrace in some ways as a society, something the media helps to feed. until/if every single person on the planet can learn to solve issues peacefully, i'm afraid we will have to continue watching our backs.
Civilized societies do not let their citizens carry weapons of war. For fuck's sake, this is a country in which it's illegal to buy KINDER EGGS (the chocolate eggs from Germany that have the little plastic eggs with a microscopic toy inside) because we're terrified our poor, precious, no-gag-reflex children will choke on the toy. Yet it's perfectly okey-dokey to own automatic weapons for "self-defense" or "hunting," or somesuch idiocy.
HR, I disagree with you. True, given how prevalent guns are in this shithole of a country, it might not make a huge difference at first. But tougher laws can certainly make it harder for a crazy (or a high-school student) to buy guns on the spur of the moment and go for a rampage. America has major fucking issues as a society, but gun control is just a basic first step.
Note that the gun lobby defends the supposed "right" to own a limitless number of automatic or semi-automatic killing weapons. If you want to go hunting, you don't need an AK-47 or a semiautomatic machine gun. This is beyond disgusting.
i dont think anyone really believes this could have been prevented. how do you supervise every single person walking around and monitor their intentions. If someone has it set in their mind to harm, they can find a way if they're willing to risk their life. setting more restrictions and having more control by various institutions to monitor in the name of "safety" only makes us paranoid, and doesn't keep us safe. You see how much they're spending on Iraq....well, what are our people doing abroad. we are under attack from our own it seems as well, and altho. this is terrorism in its worst form (with absolutely no reason to harm so many innocent people on a whim or because of a grudge possibly), and this happens fairly regularly, it seems the root of the problems are never really addressed. in this case, we can speculate, but we'll never really know why. i think that's the same for what's going on in iraq. i don't think we'll ever understand why, or the twin towers...you have to keep those bastards alive to tell their own story, or you don't really get to the root of it and why! so we'll never understand why is what i think.
jason, you're right about the ak-47 issue. but just think, if some of the other students were carrying guns, a lot less lives would have been taken. I don't own a gun, nor do i wish my household to carry one, because i am concerned my kids would find it and do something to harm themselves, but...the constitution allows citizens to bear arms, and i think that's for a good reason. the fact that some people are F**ked up isn't a good reason to leave others defenseless from crazies.
Obviously, the DC Gun Ban needs to be implemented nationwide, because it's been so successful here. Just like Prohibition was for alcohol. And reefer. And crack. And prostitution.
And I don't recall any reports of assault weapons being used, just pistols and lots of ammo.
MO, There's animosity and hatred everywhere. In a gunless society they are expressed by stabbings. In a knifeless society they are expressed by fistfights, etc. Guns aren't the problem, but they make it worse. The problem is the human condition.
Hill Rat, what do you mean by "won't have an appreciable impact for at least 5-10 years?" That's irrelevant to whether or not there's a problem. Who sounds like a politician here?
Jason,
(a) it's not illegal to sell Kinder Eggs. There's a shop in Clarendon where you can buy them.
(b) it IS illegal for a private citizen to own an automatic machine gun
(c) the "assault rifles for hunting" argument is a fiction made up by gun control advocates
(d) this particular crime was committed using handguns, which are easier and quicker to obtain on the black market than through legitimate dealers
David - Private citizens can legally own fully automatic (fires more than one shot per trigger pull) weapons. You have to apply for a Class III Dealer's License with the Dept of Treasury, not be a convicted felon, have a history of mental illness or narcotics abuse, and a host of other requirements, and pay a transfer fee to purchase your weapon from other Class III dealers.
Why would anyone do this? It's because since they were made a controlled device in the 1930s, automatic weapons have become highly collectible commodities. Vintage Thompson Submachine guns can fetch upwards of $30k on the collectors circuit. Even cheap Mac 10/11 guns go for $3-5k and have a appreciation rate that rivals real estate or other investments.
It's like a 401k you can take to the range and put a couple thousand rounds through.
The report I read this morning said two 9MM with their serial numbers filed off. Talk about pre-meditated! Needless to say there was also lots of amo.
There is no gun-ban that would have prevented this because there is a guban at that school already! Students are not allowed to bring weapons on campus. Perhaps if some of them had the body count would be much lower.
Logan, you can't possibly be that stupid. A gun ban imposed by a university campus with absolutely no enforcement powers beyond their - what? - three-tenths of an acre is not the same thing as a ban imposed by a national government with full powers of policing across its borders.
STFU already.
Jason: apparently you can't handle anyone having a point of view that is different from yours (perhaps it is you that should shut up)...
Here is a quote from a poster on another web-site. I am not the only one that is thinking along these lines.
Irony of ironies.
In 2006 a Virginia Tech representative praised the defeat of Virginia House Bill 1572 that proposed to allow students with state-issued concealed handgun permits to carry their handguns on college campuses in Virginia. The VA Tech official stated. ?"I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions, because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
www.onenewsnow.com/2007/04/va_tech_official_praised_defea.php
FEEL safer. Not actually BE safer.
Irony of ironies.
Jason: apparently you can't handle anyone having a point of view that is different from yours (perhaps it is you that should shut up)...
Here is a quote from a poster on another web-site. I am not the only one that is thinking along these lines.
Irony of ironies.
In 2006 a Virginia Tech representative praised the defeat of Virginia House Bill 1572 that proposed to allow students with state-issued concealed handgun permits to carry their handguns on college campuses in Virginia. The VA Tech official stated. ?"I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions, because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
onenewsnow.com/2007/04/va_tech_official_praised_defea.php
FEEL safer. Not actually BE safer.
Irony of ironies.
Jason, I believe you'll find that the people who are advocates of less gun control are not even close to being the same people that legislate those kinds of micro-managed child safety issues. Conservatives believe in taking personal responsibility, for your own actions, and your own right to bear arms responsibly.
And is this topic even important right now??? No amount of gun control could stop a maniac wwho is bent on killing as many people as possible. To pollute this sad day with this kind of political nonsense is disappointing, to say the least...
Monkeyerotica-
Your point about knives is taken. But my point is this: One deranged person with a knife cannot kill 31 people and wound dozens of others without someone stopping him. Guns change the equation.
HR, I disagree with you. True, given how prevalent guns are in this shithole of a country, it might not make a huge difference at first. But tougher laws can certainly make it harder for a crazy (or a high-school student) to buy guns on the spur of the moment and go for a rampage.
Jason - Have you considered switching to decaf? You got your knickers in a twist mighty quick here.
Seriously though, this guy had a 9's with the serial numbers filed off; hardly something he bought at Wal-Mart yesterday morning and well outside of any gun control legislation.
Hill Rat, what do you mean by "won't have an appreciable impact for at least 5-10 years?" That's irrelevant to whether or not there's a problem. Who sounds like a politician here?
d - What I mean is that there are already too many guns in circulation for a ban to have a real impact right away. There are hundreds of millions of legally owned guns in America; you can ban whatever you want, but until the gov't can track down and confiscate all of those guns that are already out there, psychos that want to go on killing sprees will have access to weapons.
(a) it's not illegal to sell Kinder Eggs. There's a shop in Clarendon where you can buy them.
From Wikipedia:
"Kinder Eggs containing toys are not suitable for children under the age of three due to the small parts which may be ingested or inhaled. They are sold all over the world; however, they are banned in the United States where the Food and Drug Administration has deemed the encapsulated toy to be a choking hazard. Kinder Egg-like confections are available, but only in a form filled with small candies and/or stickers. There are some stores in the United States that sell genuine Kinder Eggs, often in conjunction with other imported British or other European sweets, although their importation is technically illegal due to the FDA ban."
Thank god the FDA is here to protect us from ourselves.
CD Trave - Unfortunately tragedies like the one at VA Tech yesterday are often catalysts for political discussion. So long as people stay away from pointless ad hominem attacks on those who disagree with them and are mindful of the tragedy that inspired this conversation, I don't believe that discussing the political issue of gun control is inappropriate at this time.
My $.02,
HR
I'm slightly annoyed that this horrific incident has only inspired arguments over gun-control laws.
My main beef is that the first shooting happened at around 7:30 in the morning. However, students were allowed to leave shortly after to attend their morning classes. A friend of mine who goes there was allowed to leave her dorm around 8 am and then ended up in lockdown in the library for several hours. Same thing happened when there was an escaped convict on campus last semester. If there is a shooting or any kind of danger, you DON'T LET STUDENTS LEAVE THEIR BUILDINGS.
I'm sorry if I came across as shouting at you, HR - I'm mad, but not at you. This is just such a horrible tragedy that did not need to happen. Our country is so collectively fucked in the head if we think it's appropriate to legislate against chocolate candy because it could conceivably cause injury, yet we allow people to own limitless numbers of guns. Isn't a gun a bit more dangerous than a plastic egg in chocolate???
True, random violence can happen anywhere, in any society. But we facilitate it because of our insane national fetishism for guns. It makes me sick. And the same people (read: Republicans) who demand we criminalize pot users because weed is supposedly so dangerous (as if) are the ones clamoring against any and all gun bans because "guns don't kill people; people kill people." Yet to point out that obvious logical fallacy is to "use tragedy for political ends," or something.
I hope your friends are doing ok, Lindsey.
No worries mate, that's why I responded with a joke. Gun control is an issue that inspires a lot of passion on both sides, especially in the wake of yesterday's tragic events.
"Isn't a gun a bit more dangerous than a plastic egg in chocolate???"
Well, if you are comparing a gun in the hands of a responsible hunter to a toy-filled chocolate egg in the hands of an unsupervised 3-year-old, then no.
The only person responsible for yesterday's tragedy is Cho Seung-Hui. Not the VA Tech administration or police, not guns, and (gasp!) not even Republicans.