June 21, 2007
Are You Thinking of Moving to Baltimore?
We've certainly noticed these ads in metro stations recently. Slogans like "It's Better in Baltimore" and "Get In on It", accompanied by images of spacious back yards and comfortable train commutes contrasting with cramped D.C. apartments and Beltway traffic. And we have to admit, as much as we're die hard D.C. enthusiasts, it's a compelling campaign that hits right where we feel it most: this is a great city, but are you ever going to be able to afford to buy real estate here? If recent economic predictions come true, odds are good that you won't. And that's exactly what the people behind the Live Baltimore campaign are hoping you'll think about when you spot their ads.
The Examiner has a profile up of the organization's efforts to entice Washingtonians to make the move to Baltimore. They quote Anna Custer, executive director of Live Baltimore, which is spending $150,000 on a campaign to get people like you to make the switch: “Last year, the average price of a home in Baltimore was $182,000, while the price in D.C. was $555,000 ... and there are a lot more doable options for them to get to D.C.” It's tough to argue with numbers like that.
More and more, we feel like we hear about friends of friends who are buying up cheaper property in Baltimore and moving there, but we thought we'd ask you: Are these ads, and their promise of a less expensive way of life, making you think about it all? Or is living right in the center of D.C. worth the possibility that you may be a renter for a lot longer than you'd like?
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I was thinking about moving to Baltimore. Then I remembered that it's not in Washington, which would make it a real drag to get to work and see my friends and stuff. Other than that -- totally cool, great idea.
While the cost of living, not just home prices, but other items like entertainment, surely are cheaper there, there is a downside. It's not just spending a lot more money commuting, it's the time spent commuting from Baltimore that one has to try to quantify and put in the equation. For me, living in and working in DC means I spend about 30 minutes DOOR-TO-DOOR getting between home and work. I am not sure, but my guess would be that figure would be 3 to 4 times greater, if I moved to Baltimore.
Moving to Baltimore is great if you want to live in Baltimore, but it is silly if you want to live in DC. What's the great urgency to buy a house? Where's the reat shame in being a renter all your life?
Baltimore is just like DC minus NW, NE, and SW.
Mmmm...how appealing.
;-D
Seems smart enough to me. Baltimore used to be the premier mid-Atlantic city. If they can siphon off enough of DC's famously educated and workaholic population, perhaps in 10 years they'll be able to use that as a selling point and attract a real white-collar economic base, since their traditional industrial base tanked. It's a long game move for all parties.
ZZ- there's nothing per se wrong with renting, but DC real estate has and probably will continue to beat your 401K.
They're competing with the "West Virginia is Calling" ad blitz at Metro Center. And when I hear that WV is "calling" by the way, I assume it's a call for help--"Send someone! Mining interests have levelled our mountains and contaminated the water table with toxic sludge!" Also: crazy former Klansman Senator.
Surely, this constitutes Advantage: Baltimore. I'm going to hold out, though, until I hear Fredericksburg's offer.
Philadelphia has begun marketing itself here as well. There was a slick booklet showing how funky philly is in the city paper a few weeks ago.. i think it referenced uwishunu.com/org whatever. But i think they have been going after NYC more.
There's a reason "The Wire" is based in B'More. I'm just saying...
I shoulda said "a" premier mid-atlantic city. Since at least 1900, Philly has always been at least twice as populous as Baltimore.
Maybe my real sin is that I've have trouble thinking of Philly as a mid-atlantic city. I don't know why.
Until scientists invent Star Trek-style transporter machines, I'm staying in DC in close proximity to my job.
Baltimore haters: have you actually gone there? If your Baltimore experience* is limited to "The Wire"/"Homicide: Life on the Streets"/"Roc" you should really recuse themselves from Baltimore trashing. Is No Way Out respresentative of daily life in DC?
*The Inner Harbor Galleria/ESPN Zone/"Power Plant Live!"/Duck Tour/O's game you saw at your buddy's bachelor party does not constitute "Baltimore experience".
Hell, we've been considering it and we own a house in DC. We could sell our place here and use the equity to own free and clear in Baltimore. There are a few drawbacks, however. Crime does seem to be much more of a problem. There are more cross the street and enter a sketchy wasteland of abandoned buildings experiences than you'll ever have in DC. That and the Formstone - the guys selling that shit make the jerks who littered NE DC with metal awnings and fake grass on the porch/sidewalk look like rank amateurs.
I used to go to baltimore quite often and at first i found the city to be inviting, especially if you have a car, but I live and work in DC not only for the wider range of social scenes but also the job opportunities and most of all not needing a car to get around.
Have any of you actually lived in Baltimore? I did, for six years, and I loved it--I just moved here last year. But Baltimore is a wonderful city with really nice people and way fewer type-A jerks. There are problems, yes, but nothing insurmountable. There's a decent nightlife, public transportation, and wonderful restaurants. Plus, it's always 10 degrees cooler in the summer!
I lived in Baltimore and it has nothing on DC. Move to Baltimore if you want long commutes, car windows smashed for the 53 cents in the console and people asking you for "bus fare" everywhere you go. move to west virginia(or SE) if you want cheap housing...
"Plus, it's (Baltimore) always 10 degrees cooler in the summer!"
Actually Baltimore's a degree hotter in the summer day and 6 degrees warmer in the summer night.
www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/compare/USDC0001?sfld1=Washington,%20DC&sfld2=Baltimore/Inner%20Harbor,%20MD,%20US&clocid1=USDC0001&clocid2=USMD0020
I've lived in both Baltimore and DC.
Baltimore has a far more interesting and vibrant music scene... avant jazz, hip hop, indie... lots more clubs than DC's stale offerings.
It has a couple of real independent movie theaters that kick DC in the ass.
You can get great food in the neighborhoods... for a lot less than an starter at Komi or Citronelle.
Lets just cut to the chase... if I weren't locked into a DC job with a commute to DC every day, I'd definitely stay in Baltimore. DC pretty much sucks.
I moved from Baltimore to DC. Drugs are pretty bad in both cities, but my move was due to my roomie in B'more putting drugs underneath my bed while I was on vacation. Then there were the prostitutes in the house when I came back....
I live here in Bmore, and mostly work from home. Once or twice a week, I head down to DC on the MARC, which takes fully an hour (during which I read or otherwise work). After work, I hit the usual bars and such.
Since I work from home, I really do appreciate that my $1,000/month goes toward the mortgage on a 3BR house on a quiet, tree-lined street, rather than a rent on a house now converted into 46 studio apartment units. And hey, there are eight (8) coffee shops within walking distance if I feel like getting out. Oh, and the Book thing (see bookthing.org) is pretty close by. Gosh---it's like an actual city up here.
I have to admit, though, that Washington has Bmore beat by a mile on 22-year olds fresh out of college who are kind of stupid but dress really sharp in an Ann Taylor kind of way. The Baltimore look tends to be more on the indie hipster side. You also get more medical people, due to the thousand hospitals up here, and they tend to have no fashion sense either.
Oh, and I finally caught up to the curve and started watching The Wire (yes, everybody in Baltimore has seen it and loves it). That show is fab.
I already moved from a 2,000 square foot, completely renovated place in Columbia Heights to a crappy 1,200 square foot place in Dupont that has now been under renovation for a year. Given what I’ve gone through to get away from the ghetto trash that populate most of DC, I’ll die before I live in Baltimore.
JM -- Are you insane? DC is light years ahead of B'more when it comes to film. E street routinely screens films that never play B'more (festival or otherwise). What's more, the Avalon (a real classic theater -- unlike the Charles) and the AFI Silver offer far more interesting programming than anything available in "charm" city. More importantly, mainstream film fare doesn't usually play in the city since B'more currently has only seven screens -- so not only do you have to work in DC BUT you have to leave the city to watch Knocked Up. Great film town! And don't get me started on nightlife -- B'more is OK (at best) but Fells Point, Canton, Hampden, Federal Hill taken together lack the energy of two blocks of 18th Street -- for god's sake, B'more can't even support a good jazz club. Oh and one last thing, DC has street life -- that is people actually walk in their neighborhoods -- not so in B'more -- the so called hip neighborhoods like Mt Vernon are dead. Sorry hon!
Sure, Baltimore has it's problems, but so does the District. Several neighborhoods in Baltimore have problems with crime, but not the entire city.
Really, all you Baltimore haters, the city is not as bad as you describe it. I suspect some of you Charm City haters have probably never even stepped foot in the city. If you had you'd realize there are plenty of great neighborhoods that have more character than many DC hoods.
I can't wait to read what DCistGoHome guy writes.
Respect -- I actually like B'more (I lived there for several years, though, I find the city's neighborhoods to be increasingly less eccentric, less diverse and less interesting) BUT my main problem is that I think it's pathetic that the city has in effect thrown in the towel and accepted its future as a DC suburb. While this marketing campaign may reflect reality -- Baltimore has been losing thousands of jobs and people for decades -- it still strikes me as pitiful. So I guess DC (and its environs) has the money, jobs, culture, immigrants, shopping, entertainment, etc. and B'more has, well, cheap housing and to be fair some nice dive bars as well as a few ever diminishing fragmented remnants of ethnic 'hoods. Sorry but B'more makes my choice of staying in DC far too easy.
No More B'more- you’re just baiting for baiting’s sake. Nobody but a fool would claim that a city has “thrown in the towel” because a promotional organization sees an economic benefit to appealing to the residents of a more expensive city 35 miles away. Baltimore’s economy is not shrinking. Its metropolitan area has been steadily growing for the past 50 years. But yes, it isn’t a boom town with a blowing up economy like D.C. Hence, divergent real estate values.
Also, to clarify, the mission of Live Baltimore is not to draw Washingtonians to Baltimore. Live Baltimore’s mission has always been to promote Baltimore to a young, investing, upwardly mobile demographic. They look to all avenues, and the Washington population is simply a very large and obvious source of such a demographic, and one which Live Baltimore sees as a group that Baltimore may have something beneficial to offer.
But sure, go on about how “pathetic” and “pitiful” you think this all is.
But, on another note, I think Live Baltimore is going about this all wrong. Gentrification always follows the same path. First comes comes the white collar homos who aren’t worried about the schools, then the upwardly mobile twentysomethings who potentially become private school affording thirty and fourtysomethiings... at which point gentrification becomes complete. Live Baltimore needs to find away to sex Baltimore up for the professional gay set first. Gay Baltimore’s reputation as a grungy home of fat, poop eating trannys and dirty trade-boys isn’t helping that. Geez, cart before the horse, Baltimore. Go for the rich fab boys and career driven lesbians first, and the sky is the limit!
I think you guys are a little behind the curve. Living in Baltimore isn't the cheapo option it was 5 years ago. That may change with the impending real estate "slowdown" but not by much. This monkey used to live in downtown Baltimore. The MARC commute isn't any better or worse than driving from Sterling or Quantico. Doing it by car is a little on the craptacular side. And depending on the neighborhood, you may not be saving that much money. There are places in Federal Hill that rival Georgetown in cost.
But I'm in agreement with NoMoreBMore that the town has lost a lot of its eccentricity. Neighborhoods like Hampden are littered with hipsters that would put U Street to shame. And with all the waterfront condos, downtown is starting to look like Mass Ave north of Chinatown.
Still, at least every corner still has a bar, most open at 8am. $6 happy hour beer "specials" are still for the most part unknown. You can still play duckpins in a real dive (not some faux dive like Strike where you order a boutique burger and they stick you with a bill for the month's rent). You can still buy pit beef sandwiches off Pulaski Highway. And they actually have these things called "diners" where you can get this thing called "breakfast" at any hour of the day or night. Whoda thunk that people actually want food at 3am after drinking all night? Whatta concept!
i have to admit this campaign has me considering baltimore. i'd like to own a place someday, and i'm being realistic about it when i think that i probably won't be able to buy anything in this area.
for those who've lived in bmore or live there now.... any suggestions on neighborhoods i should consider? i'd prefer something accesible to MARC so i can get into DC and (maybe this is asking for too much) something in a very safe area. preferably under 100,000 (okay, i'm kidding on this last one).
wondering - There are plenty of decent places within walking distance of Penn Station downtown, although your idea of affordable may be different from mine. Charles Street still has a few cook places to shop and hang out.
And as in DC, "safe" is a pretty relative term.
monkeyerotica-
i'm thinking 250K or less...would i be dreaming to think i could get a place that's MARC accessible and safe? - by "safe" i mean, NW DC safe i guess...(i live in the Van Ness/UDC area)
Anyone who thinks the best of "DC nightlife" is two blocks of 18th Street is sad, or 22 years old.
12 years ago my former boss laughed at me for buying a house in a nice neighborhood in NW DC. He said DC's economy was going to tank any day and only an idiot would buy real estate in DC. My house has nearly tripled in value and I've got an easy commute to my office downtown. He's stuck out in Va. crossing the Key bridge in heavy traffic each way. Loser.
Monkey -- Actually the duckpin place on Eastern Ave just closed last month (I believe it was the last one in the city) -- once again a sad sign of the times. Right now I'll take the Diner on 18th and the Steak and Egg on Wisconsin (best waffles in the DC area at 4am hands down) over anything in charm city. To each his own I guess...
move to west virginia(or SE) if you want cheap housing...
Cheap in relation to where? I love how everyone thinks that all of SE is the ghetto or something and how it's nothing but poverty and thug-life. My property value jumped 130K last year...and it's only gonna go higher once the ballpark comes in. Folks in my building are asking 250-400 for their studio apts and getting it. That's cheap?
Ha. The Diner =! Greasy Spoon. Give me a Waffle House over that jacked-up, bourgie bullshit.
wondering - I'm actually a big Baltimore fan, but "NW DC safe" is unrealistic in Baltimore. Baltimore and DC are not cut up in the same way. DC has has a "good side" and a "bad side." Baltimore's nicer real estate runs through the city like veins on a leaf, causing all residents to be fairly close to risky neighborhoods. Someone once compared baltimore's hoods to me like the body of a butterfly if you superimposed that butterfly over a map of the city. The wings represent the blighted neighborhoods, both the east side and the west side. the body of the butterfly represent the nicer parts that run north and south through the center of the city, and the negative space representing boring but safe semi-suburban neighborhoods.
But, within that price range, if you are looking for a condo rather than a house that is convienient to Union Station. Bolton Hill - some beautiful, relatively pricy real estate with lots of beautiful people within walking distance of Union Station. Unfortunately, it is surrounded on three sides by some of the worst neighborhoods in the city. Muggings are insanely high, even compared to Mt. Vernon. Homewood, just north of Hopkins and Charles Village. Beautiful and safe, downright bucolic even... a quick bus, bicycle or drive to Union Station, but maybe a little outside of your described price range. Hampden, very urban with a blue coller feel... full of yuppies and a quick bike or drive to Union Station and within your price range. Other options include Lauraville and Hamilton in Northeast Baltimore. These require a fifteen minute rush hour drive to Union Station. But, on the plus side, monthly parking rates around Union Station are only about a third or quarter of the cost of parking rates in NW D.C.
I'd rather live in Rosslyn and walk to G-Town then ride the damn MARC twice a day.
Oh, and the latter neighborhood I listed. Hampden -rowhomes. Lauraville and Hamilton - seperate homes. And last I checked, they were running around 250K.
B'More - Patterson Bowling Center is still open last time I checked. Went to a birthday party there last month myself. There's still a handful of them WAY out in the sticks in Virginia.
And I'm sorry, but The Diner? Mac n Cheese aint sposta have no gruyere in it, yo. Gimme the Sip n' Bite any day, particularly a day I want my pants to explode. But you're right, once Waffle Shop folds, Steak n Egg will be about the ONLY decent greasy spoon left inside DC.
The Diner: Last time I was there it was obvious that whoever made the corned-beef hash had NEVER eaten corned-beef hash before. It was awfull! How can you call yourself a diner and not have decent hash?!?! I'm sure that kind of tragedy wouldn't happen in Bawlimer.
No More B'more -
Your mixing up Patterson Bowling with Seidel’s on Bel Air Rd. Patterson Bowling on eastern avenue is alive and well.
Friends of ours sold their DC townhouse for a free-standing Baltimore house. They were able to take the equity from their house and buy the new one free and clear with no mortgage. The both got sweet deals to commute to the office in DC Tues-Thurs and work from home. Here’s what they told me:
1. The commute was an insane hell. They expected to commute together, but they were dropping off their kids at daycare at 7am and picking them up at 7pm. The MARC train commute was easily an hour- More if they had trouble getting to the train station or on the DC metro. the commute wasn't cheap either. They decided one left for work at 5:30am (to get to the office by 7am) and the other got home at 7:30pm- that way the kids were only in daycare from 8-6. My job is 20 minutes from my house in DC. I can come home for lunch if necessary.
2. Their neighborhood was ignorant, uneducated and racist. Their “colorful” neighbors turned out to be mean vandals. This low-budget punk rock couple thought they found a funky place to be, but they got recycling dumped all over their lawn, the neighbors let their dogs roam free barking at them on their own property, neighborhood kids stole toys from their backyard and the parents just laughed. People criticized them to their face for basically being bourgeoisie even though they thought they were punks. Neighbors of both races disliked them for either being crackers or for not being cracker enough. The neighborhood kids were miscreants who barely read and watched violent movies.
3. The city’s night life holds nothing on DC. The Ottobar has good bands that miss DC, but other than that they were still driving to the black cat.
4. The city’s local music scene is pretty awful and the best musicians came from other cities.
5. Fells Point and other supposedly “cool” places to hang out are frequented by frat boys and tradesmen who make the areas hostile to women & gays, angry, and often times racist.
6. The Wire is not incorrect. They accidentally drove onto streets blocked by gangs at least twice that they told me. They were looking for a friends house when a cop pulled them over and told them to get out of the neighborhood (he thought they were buying drugs). They moved into a "good" neighborhood but the "bad" neighborhood is only 4 blocks away.
DC is far from perfect, but I see no reason to move anywhere that isn’t NY, LA, London, Paris, etc. If you can’t afford to live in DC then it’s time to go to graduate school so you can afford to live in DC! That's the economy's way of telling you to get a better job!
I lived in Baltimore for a year as an AmeriCorps volunteer and found it to be an unlivable shithole. I still have family and friends that I visit every month or so and I always find myself disgusted and angry, dying to scramble back to DC as soon as I reach the Baltimore City limits (no, the friends I visit don't live in the ghetto, they live in Roland Park, Baltimore's "Georgetown").
If you think the schools here are bad, try Baltimore- it's even worse. On top of that, the city government has no interest in trying to improve the schools- they regularly play politics with the kids. During the 2006 election, the city refused to close down several schools that were slated to be closed for poor performance (believe me, that takes A LOT in that town) so as not to embarrass O'Malley in an election year.
For so, so many reasons, I feel Baltimore isn't worth PISSING ON, let alone living in. I want to take a fucking baseball bat to those stupid ads whenever I see them.
DCer - You had me until you pulled these gems out of a**.
DC is far from perfect, but I see no reason to move anywhere that isn’t NY, LA, London, Paris, etc.
I'm not going to even touch the double negative thing, but you're basically saying anyone who isn't in some overpriced city is an idiot? WTF?
If you can’t afford to live in DC then it’s time to go to graduate school so you can afford to live in DC! That's the economy's way of telling you to get a better job!
So if you don't have any money, screw you! Poverty is the economy's way of saying go die somewhere else and decrease the surface population.
Anacostia is still totally affordable and it should be a lot nicer in the coming years
Move there!!!
Monkeyrotica-
I suppose you can cut and paste words to mean just about anything, but that's not at all what I wrote. I never said someone was an idiot for living in an expensive city, nor do I think that the cities I mention are overpriced at all. London? Man, that city has everything even if you have to pay for it. What I did was set the bar higher for myself because I'm going to achieve as much as possible in my life, not be lazy.
and as far as saying "screw you" if you don't have money, I said no such thing, what I said was if you can't afford to live here it's time to get a better job so you can. There is no reason on earth to set a lower bar for yourself or accept failure as your lot in life. That kind of conservative "the poor will always have poor kids" way of thinking is nothing I believe in.
DC is far from perfect, but when I move, I'm "movin' on up."
The problem with Baltimore's strategy, monkeyrotica, is that they're not interested in keeping the housing affordable- they're just trying to whore the city to drive up real estate prices like DC did several years ago. And you can't tell me that they have ANY interest in addressing greater poverty issues in the city! My God! Their strategy is just to be utterly apathetic towards creating better schools or employment opportunities and keeping public transportation options to a minimum so you either have to be dependent on slow and unreliable bus systems or put your whole paycheck into a car. All the investment in the city has gone towards adding amenities to he already affluent corridors (i.e. Charles Street) and attracting yuppies, hipsters, and self-absorbed Hopkins student brats who not only have no interest in investing in the city, but will be separated from the parts of the city that need help most (which is about 90% of the city).
Baltimore has the potential to be an AMAZING city, but the local developers and government seem determined to shit all over that and try to pretend it's a suburb of another city. Nobody's interested in letting Baltimore just be the best Baltimore it can be- just exploitation. Anyone who truly wants to make it a better place is crushed by the greed and laziness of those in power. There's zero talk of making real improvements to make the place more livable for the people who've lived there for decades- just how to attract outsiders and shield them from the way Baltimore really works.
The references to The Wire are more pertinent than you think. Keep in mind that the show was written by former Bmore cops, teachers and government employees. Anyone who's had the opportunity to work within any of these organizations knows that the show is heartbreakingly on the mark. Every time I watch that show, I end up depressed for days- I'VE TAUGHT THOSE KIDS. I'VE SEEN HOW THEY LIVE. I'VE SEEN HOW NOBODY CARES. I'VE SEEN THEM SABOTAGING THESE PEOPLE. I've seen the non-profit poverty pimps, apathetic teachers, and sleazy local politicians and "activists" profiting of their mismanagement.
DC is far from perfect, but at least we own up to our flaws and are making an effort to correct them. We don't pretend to be a suburb of a city with a smaller population and sweep our dirt under the rug.
There is a reason you can get a house for $100,000 there- because the city is still built on the backs of the poor and being repopulated with the blind.
If you think Baltimore is all quiet, tree-lined streets, YOU ARE BEING DOOPED! It makes me so fucking sick!
DCer - I can see why Baltimore and your friends were not a perfect match. Baltimore certainly isn’t for everybody in D.C. If someone thinks D.C. is a great town and love the Cosmopolitan vibe, they’re not going to be happy in Baltimore. I’ve known both kinds of Washingtonians who have moved to Baltimore, those who loved it and those who hated it.
If their neighbors hated their guts, that seems to imply that they were of a certain personality type. Methinks they probably walked around wearing high hats looking down their noses at the neighbors they looked at as working class mongrels, and the neighbors probably responded in kind.
All the evidence that you provided implies that this was the case. And judging from your last paragraph and your opinion that only the world’s cosmopolitan centers are worthy of acknowledgment, and that you and them have a close relationship, I cannot see how they could have possibly been happy making Baltimore a home. They obviously made a foolish decision.
“Last year, the average price of a home in Baltimore was $182,000, while the price in D.C. was $555,000" ... It's tough to argue with numbers like that.
Not that tough. Given that B-more is much larger and has far more low-end housing to even that average out.
Miami consolidated itself with all of Dade county, and as a result the average home price is around 250k. However the average home price in GREATER Miami (aka the only parts where you'd actually want to live) are easily double to triple that. Sample sizes can help you deceive.
If I were staying up here, I'd consider NoVa before I considered Baltimore, mostly for the shorter commute and ability to get by without a car.
I have lived in DC, MontCo, NoVa and Baltimore. I have to say that for all it's worth each place has it's pros and cons.
As much as i love my 1920's all brick 6br colonial on the golf course, i don't love the fact i can get coke or meth three blocks away. Or that fact that three blocks the other way is a homogeneous mostly white neighborhood. I love the diversity the city offers but just not the stark contrasts.
It is true about the 'butterfly effect' mentioned earlier. I live less than 5 min from former Mayor (now Governor) of Baltimore and i have to drive through despair and crap no matter which direction i take to get to my home. There are no direct links through the 'nice' neighborhoods, it is all interspersed. That can be good or bad depending i guess.
Either way as we are now looking at Howard and AACO, I still have a little space in my heart for 'Charm City'. It is truly the best and worst of everything.
The commute? It takes me an hour and five minutes in the a.m. to fairfax and 1.5-2 hours home. It isn't much more than it took to commute from Alexandria (ffxco) to downtown on a typical morning up 395 or from Reston to Downtown.
The mortgage? though we now own 11 homes VS one in NoVa,(thanks to our windfall on Loudoun Co Real Estate) my mortgage on our home is the same as it was in Ashburn. I could be living in disneyland instead of fright night, but my net worth has tripled.
We all make sacrifices... as much I reminisce about all the fun i had in DC, I've decided to move on w/ my life as my goals aren't typical of the 'Capitol Hill Clone' (where do you live, what do you drive, what do you do...) I am still making a few sacrifices for the future, and I can afford DC real estate, I just choose not to.
I think Baltimore is on to something and as the previously poorer blue collar neighborhoods get a fresh influx of young professionals just out of college, there will be social clashes, but it is the forefront of change for Baltimore. It is a place where someone who CHOOSES to buy a home out of college can do so and become part of a community. Not everyone cares how many clubs and restaurants are a block away. Especially when they were that close you didn't frequent them anyway.
Baltimore and DC are two very unique cities in themselves, to compare the two are apple and oranges. They both have something to offer everyone and the fact that some chose one over the other I think that's what makes us humans so special.
Some friends of mine recently moved to Baltimore. They bought a beautiful old house for next to nothing on a picturesque, tree-lined street, with a quick bus ride to the MARC station. But their commutes are making their lives miserable. Even when everything works out, it's an hour+ ride on the train and then on the Metro. And then you can practically double that commute on those really hot days in the summertime, when they have to slow the trains down. And from my failed attempts at trying to get to Camden Yards before first pitch without leaving the office at 3 in the afternoon: don't even think about driving.
I love Baltimore and I think it must have been a great city at one time, but I would only move there if I were planning on working there, and not in DC.
DCer -
1. How could the commute NOT be an insane hell? Did they every bother to do a "dry run" to see how long it would take? Anyone considering moving to Baltimore and working in DC needs to do this. For instance, say you moved to Oxen Hill and had to work in Fort Belvoir. On the map, they're right next to eachother....separated by the Wilson Freaking Bridge that you'll have to drive over TWICE every day.
2. "Their neighborhood was ignorant, uneducated and racist." Was this not apparent when they first looked at the house? Did they even bother talking to their prospective neighbors that they'd be trapped with?
3. "The city’s night life holds nothing on DC." I suggest they look at options outside Ottobar. That's like saying there's no good music outside 9:30.
4. "The city’s local music scene is pretty awful and the best musicians came from other cities." It depends on what you want to listen to. Emo bands with theremins? DC's got that in spades.
5. "Fells Point and other supposedly “cool” places to hang out are frequented by frat boys and tradesmen who make the areas hostile to women & gays, angry, and often times racist." AS opposed to what? 18th Street, U Street, Georgetown all get their fare share of braying jackasses. And was Fells Point ever "cool?"
6. As for crime, I'm in total agreement. The major distinction between DC and Baltimore crime is that their criminals can actually hit their targets.
I'm with lordy. It seems your friends thought that Baltimore would just be a cheaper version of DC. It isn't. It's a bluecollar working town that's lost almost all it's manufacturing and shipping base; that was never the case with DC since it never had much industrial base to begin with. You can't lose all those jobs and expect it to be some sort of cool, edgy hipster town that rolls out the welcome wagon. You've basically got the same racial tension you have in Shaw magnified 10 times. There are still quite a few decent livable neighborhoods in Baltimore. Unfortunately, it sounds like your friends didn't do their research and ended up in the wrong one.
And BTW you've got places up in Pennsylvania selling themselves as "commutes" from DC, so Baltimore isn't that much of a stretch. I've known maniacs that commute from Gettysburg and Philadelphia.
I already bought a house with a big back yard in DC and I'm a mile from the metro. I would never move to Baltimore.
wow...sounds like some people on here sure do have some animosity towards baltimore...
after reading all this it doesn't really make that city seem too appealing though. sounds like crime is everywhere - i'd rather live in NoVa or somewhere in southern MD i guess. not that those areas are as cheap. but i guess you get what you pay for.
I love DC and want to stay. I have no problem renting for the rest of my life.
I have lived in Baltimore and commuted to DC for almost one year now. If you're considering moving, I would encourage you to do it IF 1) you already know and like Baltimore, 2) you're planning on working/going to school in or near Baltimore City, and 3) you're comfortable living in multiracial and multi-economic class communities and/or willing to humble yourself and learn.
If you don't fit all three categories, you're going to hate Baltimore.
I commute a minimum of 25 hours each week to my job. If I need to run an errand or go to happy hour after work, it takes me a LOT longer to get home, due to the erratic and infrequent MARC schedule. After 11 months of this, I've gained 20 pounds, and dropped my regular extracurricular activities (yogas, concerts, weekday dinners w/ friends). Simple things like doctor's appointments and waiting for deliveries mean that I have take an entire vacation day, as I can't just run home.
All this has been worth it for me. I love my three-story house, my noisy and close community, and my highly walkable neighborhood with big dog park and quirky local shops/bars. I'm starting grad school in Bmore this August and I plan to work there after graduation. I'm done with DC. But if you're not, I would strongly encourage you to think twice about signing up for this commute.
I don’t mean this to be patronizing, but Baltimoreans as neighbors are sort of like dogs... in a good way. They don’t care what you do for a living, they don’t care how much money you make, if you love them they’ll love you back, if you hate them they’ll hate you back. If you decide to move to Baltimore with the wrong impression of what it is going to be like, you’ll be miserable. Also, they might occasionally piss on your lawn and try to hump your leg.
And judging from your last paragraph and your opinion that only the world’s cosmopolitan centers are worthy of acknowledgment,
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oh come ON, I didn't write that.
but I AM determined, for myself, that I'm going to do the most I can for this world and if that means completing my thesis and then working for an NGO or the government or building up a private company and raising my kids with the best museums in the world then hells yeah. I'm in it to win it.
"I already bought a house with a big back yard in DC and I'm a mile from the metro. I would never move to Baltimore." -Roy
Well. How utterly fab for you. And how does this contribute to the discussion? (I am so sick of people who can't contribute anything meaningful/passionate/etc. so they actually think that a self-serving, look-how-much-more-money-I-have-than-the-rest-of-you,
priveleged-to-the-point-of-blindness, random comment is something worth reading for the rest of us.) Really, Roy, how does this further this thread? Besides letting us know that you are "above" those little, insignificant, niggling people who have to scramble and plan and scrimp to own ANYTHING...much less the heady heights of Rosslyn with a "big back yard." How fortunate for you. How happy. For you. (And thank you for sharing.)
Ok, that said, I think this discussion is incredibly interesting but perhaps a big piece of this involves expectations. We moved from the midwest (Chicago) to DC for my husband's job four years ago. Culturally, the two cities are very different, and NoVa (where we live now) is definitely not Rush Street or Dearborn, but, my expectation of a city's culture is pretty lacking: we just try to roll with the highlights of wherever we are. Since we didn't expect DC to mirror Chicago, I don't moan about the lack of my favorite Chi-town aspects.
DC is itself...and so is Baltimore, it seems to me. I loved Chicago, but any die-hard, cosmopolitan power-broker always searching a room for the other "powerful" people is going to feel adrift there. Same goes for the reverse.
All of the cultural info aside, though, I think for me personally that crime is non-starter for my choosing a neighborhood. Done. Won't do it. No easy access to any club nor any fabulousness of any nightlife is worth my life. Maybe this is part of growing up or having come from the Midwest or whatever, but I really just don't ever see the decision to be made for living anyplace with "fright night" levels of crime. Yeah, I'm scared of bad people doing bad things to me or my property and no, I don't consider that "local color." Just my opinion though.
All very interesting discussion though.
While crime IS a big factor in choosing whether to move to B'more, I must say the commute for me is not.
I currently live smack-dab in the middle of both DC and B'more. I MARC into Union Station every day. From halfway to B'more, it takes me 30 minutes door-to-door taking the MARC and I could live with another 15 minutes of jamming out on my iPod or reading another great book before I go stressing at my job.
Walking to my job in the god awful humidity in the summer and ice in the winter isn't much for me to look forward to doing twice a day for half the year just so I can more conveniently hang with a bunch of egomaniacal suits after work.
Crime is the only deterrent to moving to Baltimore. Until Baltimore cleans up it's image in that department, there isn't much hope in my moving there.
For the time being, I'm happy with my 30-minute relaxing commute into DC without having baltimore druggies or dc power mongrels as neighbors.
Another factor to consider when looking at Baltimore is Maryland's $1.5 billion structural deficit. In the next 18 months, potential Baltimore transplants can definitely look forward to some combination of tax hikes and service cuts.
I got a real kick out of the bozos calling in to talk radio to whine about Virginia's hike in moving violation fines. A bunch threatened to move to Maryland! Good luck, buddy. You'll last about 5 minutes before you go screaming back, begging for those speeding tickets.
I don't know that much about specific areas in B'more, but I definitely try to make it up to LP Steamers a couple of times each summer for crabs. It's a great little neighborhood spot in Locust Point; they have a roof top deck and lots of cheap cold beer to go with their expertly steamed crabs. I'm sure I could live in that neighborhood for much less than the Hill even when you factor in commuting, but I quit my last job because the trip to Rockville everyday was killing me. Even though I have a job where I could work remotely almost all the time, I don't know if the extra logistical hassles that moving B'more would entail would ever be worth it.
Just My $.02,
HR
My mother recently bought a townhouse in the Brooklyn section of Baltimore. Before that she lived in a house 5 minutes from my own but she rented. I was happy that she was able to own her home, but then the problems with her neighbors began. Their kids were horrible. They put glitter on her steps, poured dirt into her air conditioner vent, tied fishline to her steps to make her trip and fall, and the final straw was when they broke down the fence that separated their yard from hers. She called the cops and complained. There is a man who lives in a tent on the corner, and a strip club right across the street. The house is nice on the inside, but my family wants her to rent it and find a new place closer to us again. Im not saying all of Baltimore is like this, but I've seen my fair share of crazy when I visit.
Yes you pay a lower price to buy a house in that area but all of the bad things that come with it are not worth it. She never had any problems when she lived in DC or Prince George's County.
Both cities blow in their own way.
Baltimore has a lot of ghetto, but at least most people are down to earth and stay there for years.
DC is full of transient Ivy League pricks that feel entitled to respect but never provide the same. Oh, and DC has all the ghetto and crime too. And a higher rate of HIV infection. And 25,000 Cosi, Starbucks, and CVS's. And "hot" places like Dupont, Chinatown, and the recently developed Columbia Heights area. And the suburban crowd that trashes 18th St. every week. And proliferates second rate restaurants with $29+ entrees. But all is forgotten when someone enters a classic "dive" like Dan's or Saint Ex. And don't forget slumming at places like Five Guys to feel cosmopolitan!
I really don't know where to start with this dead horse but here we go. If your into a more "upscale" environment where status and power are important than DC is for you. On the other hand if your more of a "laid back" person who could care less where you buddies work or what they drive then Baltimore is more your cup of tea.
Having moved to Baltimore after living many years in Amsterdam, The Netherlands, as well as in the San Francisco Bay area, Baltimore is really not my cup of tea. If you have lived in a more worldly city, life here can be a bit boring. If I was working in D.C. with a decent wage, would I still live here? No way!
Here are some reasons why:
1. People
"Either you're employed by Hopkins or you're unemployed."- Baltimore attracts a lot of the scientific researchers and medical types. The lack of diversity in employment means that the kind of people you will encounter in Baltimore will be limited too.
I myself am a researcher, but in previous cities I've lived in I could hang out with people doing various jobs from graphic design, technology consulting, music engineers, etc. just a much more diverse crowd.
And like mentioned in the previous posts, many bars here have too much of that, frat-boy feel to them.
2. Retail
Retail is pretty much dead here since the 1960's, and most people in the city are poor. Even though I am not an avid shopper, I like to be able to stroll in a city with cool cutting edge clothing, furniture, gadgets, music, etc. But I do like Filene's basement for some bargain priced clothing.
3. Crime
Even if you live in great neighbourhoods, you are surrounded by the shabby ones. It's a common sight here to see cars with windows smashed. I also know quite a few people who got mugged in this city, even if it's not late at night!
4. Restaurants
Although there are a few nice places to eat here, like Sascha's 527, Brasserie Tatin, Bolton Hill Bistro, the choices are limited overall. The restaurant business reflects the city, which means that if most people in the city are barely getting by, there won't be that many restaurants serving classy food.
5. Atmosphere of city
There is an air of shabbiness that resonates throughout this city. If you enjoy weeekend days strolling around in a city, then Baltimore definitely is not it.