July 12, 2007
Columbia Heights Listserve vs. Ross
The Columbia Heights listserv has been a heated battle ground of thinly veiled race and class issues of late. When they're not sniping back and forth, many of the posters have been loudly bemoaning the Ross and Marshalls discount clothing stores coming to the new DCUSA development at 14th and Irving NW. They also complain about the incoming Lane Bryant, Foot Locker, and Mattress Discounters.
The listserv has been abuzz with messages such as "How do we encourage Ross, NOT to come into CH?." The way some posters talk about the stores, it sounds like they expect the only people who will shop there will be crackheads and burglars looking to break into cars and stick people up on their way to and from buying some pants and a belt. The discussion has been noted a few other places too.
For the most part, listserve participants are avoiding stating their reasons for opposing Ross and Marshalls other than a general desire for Whole Foods or Trader Joe's, which has come up time and again. They've also said that Ross and Marshalls are too similar to each other.
Photo by dabdiputs
However, commenters at the Columbia Heights News blog are more direct about it: "Come-on folks, I really don't think we need the demographic (socio-economic) that Ross is going to attract to CH" (parenthetical theirs, not mine). Other commenters call them "ghetto ass stores," adding "Let's hope when Xmas time comes no one gets mugged walking home with Best Buy bags." The site's bloggers talk of their hearts sinking when Whole Foods and Trader Joe's said no, with rhetoric like "And it looks even worse when you consider who the top contender for the space maybe now...you guessed it - Ross Dress For Less."
At least some people want or at least don't mind Ross, Marshalls and the like. The same poster also makes the point that the listserv is hardly representative of the neighborhood as a whole, so saying that "most people don't want Ross" is inaccurate.
Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade: there are some Columbia Heights residents posting to their neighborhood listserve who are uncomfortable with new retail services that cater to lower income individuals and families. Whether their predictions that residents aren't interested in these stores are true will only be borne out after they open: if the stores do solid business, it'll be tough to keep up the argument that discount retailers aren't welcome in the "new" Columbia Heights.
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As someone who lives very close to this new development, I don't object to Marshalls and Ross in particular, but to big box chain stores in general, whether they be discount clothing stores, Targets, Best Buys, or whatever. Seeing that huge, ugly, shoddily constructed eyesore going up at 14th and Irving just brings back memories of the sprawling suburbs in which I was raised--not an aesthetic to aspire to, in my opinion.
Sarah
I can't see how development would lead to muggings. Anyone shopping at Ross has money. Not a ton, but I live just outside of CH, in MP, and I don't have much either.
My beef against Ross and Marshalls is that they're BORING. If I wanted to live in Big Box America I would move to Hyattsville.
SLightly off topic but similar....at the corner of 14th and T a 3-floor restaurant is being built, and the alcohol permit application was filed under a pseudonym and the applicant would not disclose the name of the restaurant or the owner of the company operating the restaurant. THe rumors on the street are that it is either Bennigans (gasp) or Hooters (I'm not kidding). Just rumors, but can you imagine the yuppie angst?
I think the whole brouhaha described by DCist is a classic tempest in a teapot. The neighborhood population is something like 33,000, and there have been lots of allegatinos of a race and class war going on lately. In reality, we have maybe 5-10 annoying "newcomer" complainers on the CH listservs vs. 5-10 annoying "longtime residents" complainers. I think the ease of posting anonymously and the technology in general contributes to the perception of a neighborhood in turmoil. I've lived in Columbia Heights 5 years now, and haven't met anybody in real life with such extreme positions as featured on the message boards. Old-timers and new arrivals I've met have all been cool. So, calm down everybody!
You do realize that while the origin of the expression "to call a spade a spade" goes back to ancient Greece, many people consider it racially offensive, don't you? You might want to scratch that one out.
Ugh. I'm more concerned about walking past the cavernous and ratty construction zone than whatever is going up. Just get the shit done already. But for pete's sake... no Hooters/Bennigans/etc. That's just disgusting.
Did you really say 'call a spade a spade'? Was that intentional? When you're complaining about racist commentary?
Being in favor of a pricey grocery instead of a clothing store doesn't make you racist.
And last time I checked Whole Foods lets anyone shop there, regardless of race, creed, etc. But the few times I've been there I secretly suspect they charged me more because I'm not as attractive as I once was and my mere presence there ruined the hipster vibe they were going for.
There may be some class and income issues going on here, but to suggest this is racism is a bit of a stretch, from what I read.
But I will admit I didn't read every post in the Yahoo group. If I missed some with racist comment then I would stand corrected.
I'm another resident of the area, and agree with much of Sarah's comment (can't speak to "shoddily constructed" though). I understand the need for discount shops in the district...gotta keep the money local, rather than pumping it out to PG Plaza or Silver Spring, etc. More jobs in the area. Good economic activity. Right on. Awesome.
But what about the sameness of stores? If Marshalls already has X-thousand square feet, isn't Ross redundant? Maybe an urban big-box store is a necessary evil: For all my bitchin, I'll shop at Target once in a while. Sixty million tube-socks for five bucks, what the hell. But it feels like we're going from zero to total saturation in one step.
My gut tells me DCUSA will have a retailer die-off within the first 5 years, and maybe a more permanent, slightly different mix of stores will settle in. Either way, I just hope it serves the needs of the neighborhood without devolving into some huge, rotting outlet mall in the middle of the coolest neighborhood in town.
Rite.
If I wanted to live in Big Box America I would move to Hyattsville.
Huh? I think you mean Columbia.
Having been abused by garden implements as a child, I wholeheartedly agree. Suggest replacing with Joel Goodson's immortal words, "Sometimes you just gotta say, "What the f**k."
Who said that Ross was going to be a big box store? Have you seen the one in Old Town, it fits pretty well with the existing architecture the same goes for the Best Buy in Tenleytown or The Bed Bath and Beyond in GP. I think these people are more upset that there are still large groups of working class or working poor in their neighborhood. These people crack me up, they think once the move into what they believe is a transitioning area that overnight it will become hipster heaven….face it takes time….a long time.
And Mattress Discounter sucks. There's a reason people wouldn't want one, and it ain't because they are double secret super duper closet racist hate machines. It's because Mattress Discounters take cheap versions of name-brand mattresses, jack the prices up, and try to con you into buying their overpriced crap.
I wandered into one of these places once. I've never felt like I needed a shower more than when I left, after being subjected to their incredible hard sell come-on. It was worse than last call at The Eagle on Mid Atlantic Leather weekend.
If you need a mattress, go to Costco. True, you'll have only one or two choose from. But they are half the price of Mattress Discounters, and twice the quality. And no one follows you to your car, demanding you buy RIGHT NOW OR YOU'LL BE FOREVER EVER EVER SORRY.
So you're saying I shouldn't go to Mattress Discounters?
Give me both Ross and Marshals anytime. I've gone to both Pentagon and Silver Spring for them. So having them in my backyard is a blessing. I'm not a small or rich man.
Ok, feeling somewhat alone in this sentiment, but Marshall's rocks! I just got about $250 worth of nike running clothes there for $60. They have cute shoes and bags too, some of the exact same brands that sell for three times as much at Urban Outfitters. Honestly I can't wait to have one right around the corner in CH.
I'd also like to point out that in a single block of Wisconsin Avenue, Friendship Heights has four discount clothing stores: a TJ Maxx, a Filene's Basement, a Loehmann's, and a Steinmart. Is that a "ghetto-ass" area, CH gentrifiers?
Nevermind for a moment the fact that Columbia Heights is rapidly being repopulated by significant numbers of racist and classist liberal-in-name-only assholes who care little about anything other than Whole Foods and their property values. Once all of these big-box stores open up, the area around 14th and Irving is going to become hell on earth as a result of the sheer amount of vehicular traffic that it will attract -- think Friendship Heights times ten. And anyone who thinks that most shoppers will be arriving on foot or by bicycle or skateboard is delusional.
Guest #5:
"Many people" were also offended back in 1999 when Mayor Williams' aide used the word "niggardly".
"Many people" managed to force that aide's resignation, without regard to the fact that that particular word has zero racial derivation.
Zero racial derivation. You know, just like the phrase "call a spade a spade."
"Many people" can be complete morons.
With any luck "many people" will spend an eternity in the afterlife sitting through the most boring English class Satan could ever devise. And the PC Word Police can sit right up at the head of the class.
I'm not sure why it is 'racist' or 'classist' to resist giant big box stores, and prefer, instead, to see local small businesses grow--i.e., the way we have seen Logan Circle area or U Street NW develop. I do not know how much of that growth was organic or planned or whatever, but in any case, that is the kind of development and improvement I see a lot of commmenting here and there want--it doesn't make them 'racist'.
A Hooters would be awesome. I don't understand why so many people think they are too rico suave to enjoy fine wings and fine ladies and cheap beer.
The big sticking point for me, and I'm sure a few others, is that Ross and Marshalls are very similar stores, so why have them both? And if I were going to pick one, I'd pick Marshalls.
And one thing I think a lot of the "haters" don't think about is the business side of things. Higher end retail isn't going to move in here because the demographic won't sustain certain stores. Regardless of all the newcomers, Columbia Heights, as well as Petworth, are still working class in nature and the residents can shop, and probably welcome, stores like Marshalls and Payless Shoes.
I thought "calling a spade a spade" had to do with playing cards. Anyone who thinks it is racist because of Greek origins would have had to dig up whatever reference that was and then decide to be offended about it to prove how literate they are-- because I guarantee that no one using it thinks it means anything having to do with race.
I think Trader Joe's would serve the area much better, but that's just me.
Oh, and if a Marshall's, Ross, and Mattress Discounters go in, might as well stick some Dollar Stores and mini-mall type places you find on 14th and Belmont too.
guest [16]: Exactly. Traffic in that intersection is bad enough as it is. I can't even imagine how it will be once the Jeep Cherokee invasion begins. PG Plaza is right next to the Metro stop of the same name, yet that lot is always full.
I don't object to the fact that DC USA will include some discount stores; personally, I happen to like Marshall's and Ross. It's like going to a yard sale where everything happens to be new merchandise. A lot of the merch is rubbish, sure, but patience and persistence is often rewarded with the occasional gem.
My problem is the developers, who are displaying the same risk-averse and unimaginitive attitude and plugging in the exact same stores you see at every crappy McBigBoxCentre. "Hmmm, Best Buy and Target are good, but Kohls and a Chili's would make it even better! Can we squeeze in a PetsMart and a CompUSA? Ooooh, F.Y.E.!"
If they had a grain of sense they'd recognize that CH is in fact a unique and diverse community, and that if they stepped outside of one of their three pre-set retail templates, they could really accomplish something there. Besides, it's not just CH people who are going to be shopping here. You think people in Kalorama are going to truck it out to Seven Corners to hit Target if there's one a few blocks away? Come on. Discount retail could easily coexist with funky or upscale shops at DC USA, but they're choosing to stick with the tried-and-true. Their loss.
Guest 16: Generalize much about new residents?
Guest 17: Yes, I am aware that 'call a spade a spade' is a legit, non-racist term. But I thought it was fairly ironic to be using it in a column insisting others are being racist.
Having grown up in the South I'd routinely hear people say 'let's call a spade a spade' when they wanted to refer to black people. Not just using the term 'spade', but actually using the phrase 'let's call a spade a spade' as a little coded joke. Aside from being fairly witless and really not terribly funny, it did serve it's purpose - it was surface code when you wanted the others around you to know your intent.
The Great DC Niggardly Episode was the proper use of a business term, in the proper business setting. Under no circumstance has 'niggardly' been used to describe people's race. As such, the reaction by many involved was, well, heartbreakingly stupid.
But 'spade' has been used to negatively describe black people specifically, repeatedly. That's why it's use here was an odd choice. I was just wondering if it was some intentional point the author was trying to make.
gues 16/DCfist. that's why I'm glad I live about a 15 minute walk away. i can just stroll over and pick up these amazing target socks everyone is talking about without having to deal with traffic.
"stick with the tried-and-true"
This only means that they are charging insane rental rates, where only national chains can live.
CompUSA....DEAD...as in Chapter 11 or 13.
What idiots would think "call a spade a spade" to be racist?
Guy Incognito,
You post makes sense. Having a chain pet store would be useful to the neighborhood in my view.
But, how many people have given thought to the real possibility that neither Marshalls nor Ross could end up at DC USA. It could happen, especially in the case of Ross.
But, I still think that either way, plenty of people in CH and surrounding areas would be shopping at a Marshalls, Best Buy, Bed, Bath and Beyond, definitely Target, etc. I still see Columbia Heights, Petworth, etc as working class neighborhoods, and there is nothing wrong with them staying that way with a higher demographic sprinkled in to make it the diverse place that it is today.
I agree completely, "many people" are morons. As I mentioned above, I am well aware of the origin of the expression; however, I am also well aware that "many people" are not. Personally, knowing that I am constantly surrounded by "many people," I think it is prudent to mind my words. I'll leave it to others, like Williams' aide, to provide the opportunity to discuss the etymology of words and expressions "many people" needlessly find offensive.
From http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/83700.html
"Gods people shall not spare to call a spade a spade, a niggard a niggard."
The phrase is much older than that though. Nicolas Udall, in his Apophthegmes, that is to saie, prompte saiynges. First gathered by Erasmus - translated 1542, has:
"Philippus aunswered, that the Macedonians wer feloes of no fyne witte in their termes but altogether grosse, clubbyshe, and rusticall, as they whiche had not the witte to calle a spade by any other name then a spade."
This refers back to Plutarch's Apophthegmata, 178 BC.
The eccentric right-wing British Tory politician Sir Gerald Nabarro was fond of emphasizing his direct 'man of the people' image by saying 'I call a spade a shovel'. In fact, despite being from an immigrant family himself, Nabarro loudly supported the repatriation of Caribbean immigrants to the UK. How he referred in private to the people who would have undoubtedly have been called 'spades' in Nabarro's social circle isn't recorded.
However, even though its origins are not racist it has also historically been associated with racism. This has happened with many things, for example the Nazi appropriation of the swastika.
Oh and I love Marshalls but I'll take a $1.35 metro ride over having one in my backyard.
I'm not sure why it is 'racist' or 'classist' to resist giant big box stores, and prefer, instead, to see local small businesses grow
"Local small businesses" like Trader Joe's and Whole Foods?
This isn't about resisting giant big box stores, It's about preferring one group of giant big box stores over another. The group that serves higher incomes.
Oh, and if a Marshall's, Ross, and Mattress Discounters go in, might as well stick some Dollar Stores and mini-mall type places you find on 14th and Belmont too.
You also find those "Dollar Stores and mini-mall type places" on U Street. You know, that strip that commenters here are holding up as the model of the "preferred" kind of development.
guest[26]
I live even closer. But I still have to drive through that intersection a couple times a week to go to practice, and as it is, traffic sucks.
East-West Highway & Belcrest Road - Multiple-lane thoroughfares + Urban congestion and crampedness = What we can look forward to.
It does seem like they're trying to turn Columbia Heights into another Tenleytown/Friendship Heights. I say one is enough.
I didn't realize that some people had such disdain for Marshall's and Ross. When I had an office job I had to dress for, I lived in those places.
As for modeling Columbia Heights after U Street... I'm all for small, local businesses. I try to support them when I can, but personally I don't have much need for fancy clothes or jewelry or furniture, so the stores on U Street are kind of wasted on me.
Guest 35...So you go to work naked? Lucky you, especially in this heat (not including today)!!!
I think everybody in the area would want more small, locally-owned, unique businesses, but those are a dying breed. The DC Government continues to spend money like it's 2003 but in the next few years, their revenues are going to look like 1975. Ben's Chili Bowl's taxes went from $340k in 2005 to $1.2 MILLION in 2006, and they got some kinda special exemption. Only major national chains can afford that kind of tax rate. Only a matter of time before Dante ends up selling the Black Cat to House of Blues Inc., and then where will you hiptards go? You all can't fit in the Velvet Lounge.
And WTF is the Hooters with the cheap beer? I got gouged at the one in Gallery Place, and their wings gave me the Hershey squirts.
MichaelJWest makes a good point.
Whole Foods is not a local small business. Trader Joe's is not a local small business.
It is about preferring one group of giant big box stores over other ones.
Shopping at Whole Foods is only better for a certain percentage of people who can afford it. Meanwhile, shopping at Marshalls is only better for a certain percentage of people who can only afford that.
To be fair. Trader Joe's, from what I remember, is pretty darn cheap for a grocery. But no, it is definitely not a "charming local business". It's a national chain, just like Ross, Whole Foods, Giant, or Wal Mart.
Re #16: There are certainly a few "racist and classist liberal-in-name-only assholes" among the new Columbia Heights residents, just as there are plenty of racist and classist assholes among the "old" residents: William Jordan is the most prominent example.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in the discussion, the idea that the Columbia Heights listserv represents the neighborhood is laughable. It represents the bizarre ramblings of a few people with far too much time on their hands, and little else.
While there are doubtless people who object to these stores because of concerns about property values, there are many valid reasons to be concerned.
First, trying to anchor the trail with two enormous, two enormous, very similar retail offerings that cater primarily to one socioeconomic class in a diverse neighborhood is probably not wise. Consider the shopping plaza being torn down on 14th to make way for condos – it offered a mix of weak retail and empty stores. Now contrast that to the Giant, which appeals to a broader range of people in the neighborhood, and complaints about service aside, has been quite a success.
Second, many people object to large stores per se, not just to these two specifically. I’m not thrilled about Best Buy or Target, nor would I be thrilled by Sur Le Table or another uber-yuppie offering. The neighborhood lacks the infrastructure to handle so much traffic. And besides, why do people choose to live in a city? I understand the argument that some retail is better than nothing, but it’s sad to me that Columbia Heights is charting a course to look like Silver Spring. If there’s anything we can agree on, it’s fuck Silver Spring.
14th and irving already IS hell on earth...
on a somewhat unrelated but related note, who actually shops at the stores on U Street? I've never seen more than 2 people in ANY of the many furniture stores on the street and I live at 16th & U. Maybe they're only busy on weekends..
I GOT IT!!! C'mon guys, it's so simple. We just need this place to open up a franchise at DC USA. Low prices AND hipster cred... it's got it all! Now let's turn this into a dance.
I live in Columbia Heights and think DC USA is a great thing. Its one strip of commercial stores that most people complaining about will be shopping at. I remember yuppie Mark and his crew complaining about Giant and now they shop there and I'm always tempted to say something when I see him. Some of these yuppie types that have come to CH seem to think investors are just dying to invest in one of DC's historically troubled spots.
That being said, Columbia Heights is DC's best neighborhood. Its the only truely mixed neighborhood around here. Last night I was walking my dog and just stunned at all the people walking by - AA's, Asians, Hispanic, White, gay, straight - I thought I was in the village. People get along great, they smile and say hi as you walk by. If you ask me this contraversy is invesnted.
I honestly don't feel that Target, Marshall's, and Ross moving into Columbia Heights means the death knell of city life.
As a point of reference, anyone ever seen the Atlantic Terminal Mall in Brooklyn's Fort Greene neighborhood? It's a shopping center right Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues. Not only does it have a Target and a Marshall's AND a Children's Place, but also Circuit City, Buffalo Wild Wings, Men's Wearhouse, and freakin' Chuck E. Cheese.
Do the presence of those stores make Brooklyn any less Brooklyn? Of course not.
oh, and wait.... get this.
There are countless major cities across the entire country that have had these said stores.... Target, Best Buy, Marshalls long before they ever thought about opening up in DC. And do these type of stores make New York City and less New York City? You know, the USA's premier world city. The one with all the chain stores in Times Square and Brooklyn, etc...
And yet, people in DC aren't supposed to want or shouldn't want these stores in their own backyard. I'll bet some opposing will be shopping there too once it opens up.
To me, and others, it's not the type of store(s) that are going in [i.e., Marshall's vs Trader Joes] but the development itself that is offensive. Architectually, it is going to take a huge swath of property in a city neighborhood that could have been diverse set of buildings with robust street life, and, instead, drop a ginormous monolothic block in it's place. Business-wise, ANY of the businesses that set up shop in the big box will be store #204 or #978 of some national chain and not give a rat's ass about this city generally or CH specifically. Compare with say Noi Chertoff of Go Mama Go who gives and gives and gives back to DC (i.e., for battered women's shelters etc). If the site HAD to have some so-called 'big box' retailers to get off the ground, why couldn't some part of the project be set aside for DC-area businesses? In the end, we all are going to suffer a bit with this advancement and spread of 'Generica' in our backyard....
and, you think that the streets fronting DC USA won't have robust street life?
Ok. DC USA has stores found in the suburbs.... true. But, DC USA is not built like a suburban mall.
Count how many store doors are opening up directly on the street all around DC USA.
It has an undeground parking garage and is surrounded by two entrances to the Columbia Heights metro stop.
i've read the CH list serve and columbiaheightsnews.org and i have to say the posters represent some of the people who live in the neighborhood, but not nearly the will of the neighborhood. i'd prefer to see lots of little local stores mixed with national retailers as well, but i won't whine or bemoan the fact that ross and marshall's are coming to town.
i agree with the other two posters who pointed out the hypocrisy of most of the "concerned residents:" that whole foods and trader joes are large national chains like marshall's and ross. what's the difference? of course they are grocers; and the main difference, aesthetics.
It's a national chain, just like Ross, Whole Foods, Giant, or Wal Mart.
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HEY CARPETBAGGER, When I was growing up Giant was a LOCAL store, not national. It's a DC-based chain only recently owned by out of towners.
Oh and I love Marshalls but I'll take a $1.35 metro ride over having one in my backyard.
In the end, we all are going to suffer a bit with this advancement and spread of 'Generica' in our backyard....
Wow, I've gotta hand it to you guys. Most NIMBYs don't know that they're NIMBYs, but you guys certainly aren't deceiving yourselves!
Giant's still regional at best. It's in Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware, in addition to D.C. You could do a helluva lot worse.
'and, you think that the streets fronting DC USA won't have robust street life?'
in comparison with, say, the U street corridor, P street, Connecticut Ave, 17th street, or 14th street, even one block north of DC USA--absolutely not.
Walmart was once a LOCAL store too! And, so was Target.
guest [50]
Sorry, I was being careless. I stopped thinking "national" but kept thinking "chain" when I put that in there. Jeez, chill out.
Hehe, oh yes, the hoards of people shopping all up and down the U Street corridor. Take a look in that local retailer on U Street. Most times when I look in there, 2 people are in there at most.
Even before DC USA was built, there were more people walking around in Columbia Heights.
"the idea that the Columbia Heights listserv represents the neighborhood is laughable. It represents the bizarre ramblings of a few people with far too much time on their hands, and little else."
I think he above sentence neatly encapsulates the reality of the so-called controversy on the CH listserve, CH News Forum and here on DCist. Everyone I know is working 1-2 jobs, taking classes, going to the gym, raising kids, doing home-improvement projects, and other real life activities that REALLY contribute to a neighborhood, and don't have time to more that skim the local message boards. The highly opinionated bloviators that like to stir the pot sure do have a lot of time on their hands.
Lived in MtP for a couple years now. Am wearing $6 Dickies that I bought at Ross right now. Glad I don't have to go to VA to get them anymore, but sad about the looming development. I agree with the tempest in the teapot... like it/dislike it, is there any stopping it?? Not really.
I'll still go to 3 for 10 more than Ross anyway.
many people want the gentrification signifiers not because they value them as consumers, but because they are viewed as attractive features for a neighborhood with potential to enhance real estate value. Not everyone is going to be on the same page on this point, but the NIMBYists seem a lot more tolerant to commercial development as long as it suits their financial outlook.
So many "urban myths" so little time....
How about these:
Urban Myth: Small local stores are inherently better for workers than national chains. Yes, because every small local store provides all of its employees with high wages, full benefits, and 1950's style worker protections. Give me a break. What about the small local places that only hire family? or the ones that hire illegal immigrants, pay them $3 an hour and fire them if they get hurt on the job? My first job was for a sweatshop dry cleaner that paid me cash under the table and had his father to work 12 hour days for free until he literally keeled over while pressing a shirt.
Urban Myth: "Everyone in neighborhood x would rather have business x over business y." Guess what, companies like Ross and Marshalls hire teams of people to study these things and those people have a lot more data than you do. You can be sure that if Ross wants to open up a store in your neighborhood, then they have some solid numbers to back it up. And in the real world, that counts for a lot more than what you think you know about your neighbors.
Urban Myth: Small local stores give more back to the city. Not even close. Name a major civic event in this city that wasn't sponsored by a national chain business? You won't find a single one. Enjoy the Marine Corps Marathon or the Army 10 Miler? Thank the people at KBR and USAA. Enjoy the world class pro tennis next month on 16th St? Thank Legg Mason. The Smithsonian Folklife festival? Norfolk Southern and Verizon. The Library of Congress National BOok Festival? The evil folks at Target. Even those cool George Washington bobbleheads now adorning everybodys desks were sponsored by PNC Bank. And on and on and on.
in comparison with, say, the U street corridor, P street, Connecticut Ave, 17th street, or 14th street, even one block north of DC USA--absolutely not.
Let me get this straight. You're complaining about the lack of street life that will be around DC USA when all you have to do to find it is go ONE BLOCK NORTH?
retail offerings that cater primarily to one socioeconomic class
Guest 40, while much of your post is sensible, I think the viewpoint above is what's confusing. Which "one socioeconomic class" do they appeal to? Are DC office drones not going to shop there alongside working class residents? If that's the case, somebody should alert those stores to change their inventory accordingly.
I'd guess their demographic is in fact quite broad, while it's Whole Foods and the like who's demographic is very narrow.
I think what we need is a liquor store. And a church.
Im a fiftysomething African American DC resident. Needless to say, I am disturbed by the many no so veiled race and class references written by the city's "newcomers." There is nothing worse ( and probably more hypocritical) than these fake liberals who claim to want diversity in their neighborhoods.
In some ways, I'd rather deal with straight out racists. You dont have to deal with pretense...Or some story about their black friend who was on the rowing team at Hofstra.
thanks guest #60 for sharing your thoughts with us.
I'd trust the retail data from the Ross team any day over people thinking what they want and like is what is good for everyone else in the neighborhood. Something tells me plenty of people will be shopping at Ross and Marshalls from the Columbia Heights neighborhood because there is a proven market for it.
if you're really looking for a party, jump on the h street listserv the next time a new fried chicken place is looking to move in!
retail offerings that cater primarily to one socioeconomic class
Well...... I don't think so. I think you're wrong about that one.
I think it's not so much socioeconomic class as only one market. We're getting a Best Buy in DC USA. I think most people would agree that also getting a Circuit City wouldn't really make sense -- they're serving the same market. I realize that it's not an identical situation, but it still escapes me why we need -- or should be excited about -- having both.
Er... both, where both is Ross and Marshall's.
oh, guest 69,
have you ever heard how "like" retailers group around each other to create a critical mass.
Like an H&M would want to be next to a Zara
Or a French Connection would want to be next to a Diesel.
Or a Shopper's Food Warehouse would want to be near a Costco
the list goes on and on.
There's a Filene's Basement right next to a TJ Maxx near Mazza. Do you think people complained about that when they opened? Oh, wait, I forgot Steinmart's there too.
How did that neighborhood *ever* survive?!?
I meant guest 68 not 69
One thing that was posted earlier rings true to me:
[27] RJ mentioned that the rental rates must be so outrageous, that only big national brands can afford the rent. This is exactly what is happening in NYC, and has led to a major homogenization of many formerly commercially diverse neighborhoods. Even if residents want small mom and pop stores, those stores are not going to be able to afford the rent (although somehow Stickyfingers can).
In my opinion, as a Mt. Pleasant newcomer (coming from NYC), Giant sucks! It really is a pretty lousy excuse for a supermarket. I've been biking to Wholefoods and Trader Joe's for food. Better selection AND cheaper. If only we could start something akin to the Park Slope Food Coop in the new development!
#70, I do realize that, but I think you misunderstand. We're talking about very limited retail space. Is the widest swath of the community served by having Columbia Heights be the low-price clothing district?
Or might, perhaps, it make more sense to have a broader array of retail outlets? Again, the issue isn't just Marshall's and Ross, it's that this is squandering an opportunity for a large range of retail.
guest[73]
I do admit that the Giant on Park is pretty weak (compared to its counterparts in PG County) but what about it is bad compared to what they have in Brooklyn? I seem to remember not finding a good grocery up there either. As for co-ops, you can try the Takoma Park/Silver Spring Co-op up in Takoma Park. That's about as good as it gets in that department up here.
Mount Pleasant also has a lot of small groceries which cater largely to the Hispanic population in the neighborhood.
Park Slope Food Coop? Yeah, and we should all live in a commune and eat nothing that casts a shadow!!!
I see where you're getting at #74. But, Marshalls and Ross in a 540,000 square foot regional shopping centre won't make a low-priced clothing district anymore than the TJ Maxx and Filene's Basement do on Wisconsin Avenue.
Best Buy is electronics (rich people and working class shop there too). Bed, Bath and Beyond is home furnishings. Target is a general merchandiser (more than one socioeconomic class will shop there too). Staples is office supplies and office furniture. The Vitamin Shoppe. Washington Sports Club (gym). Maggie Moos ice cream (pretty cool flavours) Seems pretty diverse to me.
Don't be nervous. It will be ok. The neighborhood will still prosper. You still made a good investment.
Enjoy The Heights restaurant. Enjoy the d'vines wine place. It takes time. You don't go from a dearth of specialty retail to a plethora of specialty retail in such a short time More is coming.
Stay calm.
#77, I always enjoy the condescending tone of self-styled community activists. Dave? William?
I don't own any real estate because, gasp, I can't afford to. And I'm excited for the Heights and d'vines (although the latter is slightly over-priced).
Dissenting voices are part of a community. Stay calm. Or should I say, stay smug.
Guest #73: There's a Yes! Organic Market in Adams Morgan and there's been talk of another branch opening in the new space just to the north of Busboys and Poets at 14th and V.
And isn't there some semi-secret Mt. Pleasant co-op run by the guy who used to own the one where Tonic is now?
Ross sucks.
Now, you've lost me! Who is Dave? Who is William?
I just think it is interesting how people can focus and getting bent out of shape on 1 or 2 retail stores (one of which is not even confirmed yet) and ignore talk about the other stores in a 540,000 square foot retail centre (not mall) as if the 1 or 2 retail store are the only ones opening up and that these 1 or 2 retail are the majority in this complex. They are not.
We can't have it our way all the time. We win some, we lose some. Most likely your loss (if you don't like Ross) is someone ele's gain. and vice versa.
"Ross sucks"
you're free not to shop in it. but, you already knew that.
Holy Crap! I go off-line for 4 1/2 hours and there's an 80-comment thread?
>I go off-line for 4 1/2 hours and there's an 80-comment thread?
The race/class threads on DCist are always entertaining.
And for the record, I haven't shopped at a Trader Joes and I find Whole Foods waaaay overpriced for its own good. But that's just me.
Forget Ross - a semi-secret Mt. Pleasant co-op? Details, please!
"Now, you've lost me! Who is Dave? Who is William?"
FYI, Dave and William are two crazies on the Columbia Heights Yahoo listserv who post frequent, lengthy diatribes against yuppies, Jim Graham, all development, etc. They both appear to be unemployed and spend all their time riling things up on the listserv, rendering it virtually useless.
Hey You Uptight Cats! Chill-Out. We're going to shop where we like and if you don't like it, don't shop there. I live in Mount UnPleasant and there is nowhere to shop for a being like myself.
No Gringoes or Tonics for me. Not my style. I for one welcome our new Electric/Fashion Overlords.
Yeah, the CH listserv is an endless source of humor. Dave is a longtime CH resident, and thus thinks his tired opinions take precedence over everyone else's. He also seems to think that a certain level of crime should be allowed in CH, and decries any attempts by the police to crack down on said crime (drinking and urinating in public and crimes committed by juveniles, mostly). William barely disguises his contempt for newcomers (read: new white residents) and out-and-out hates Jim Graham and Dan Tangerlini. William also spends about 23 hours a day responding to posts on the listserv.
to #76
Park Slope Food Coop? Yeah, and we should all live in a commune and eat nothing that casts a shadow!!!
Wow -- you've obviously never been to Park Slope. That's an awfully pricey neighborhood for a commune.
Rich people can live in communes too.
I mistyped Hyattsville. I meant Hagerstown. But what I really should have said was Rockville Pike.
Yeah, Park Slope coop is in a pricey neighborhood, but the food is cheap. It has almost the best, cheapest produce I've ever seen in the States. It also has beer, meat etc... thus it's not a bunch of granolafied hippies who don't shower.
My point here is that this neighborhood (and several others in DC), need QUALITY grocery stores at reasonable prices. I don't find Whole Foods to be reasonable. When Giant costs just as much (or more), the city has got some problems!
As an aside, Tonic = one of the worst meals of my life. Terrible!
Forget Ross - a semi-secret Mt. Pleasant co-op? Details, please!
http://www.geocities.com/citygardendc/about.html
HAHA what a nightmare eh? That your hip condo ends up as groovy as wheaton or rocvkille? Isn't there already a ruby tuesdays?
There is no nightmare. Columbia Heights is a great urban neighborhood. Thanks for your concern though.
So the more sensible yuppies and lower-income residents are going to love Marshall's and Ross, the self-important assholes are going to hate it because those stores are going to attract those horrible nasty immigrants and African Americans when they could've ended up being Trader Joe's and Whole Foods, while everybody in the neighborhood will be hating life because the coming traffic shitstorm is going to make it a miserable place to spend any amount of time? Awesome!!!
Guest 60, you may want to study up a bit before proclaiming no. 3 another urban myth. The San Francisco Diversity Study (a full text of which can be found at civiceconomics dot com) measured the economic impact of locally owned businesses v. chains in several categories. Among other things, it noted that for every $1M spent at local bookstores creates $321,000 in additional local economic spending, including $119,000 in wages and salaries paid to local employees. That same $1M spent at chains generated only $188,000 in local economic activity, including $71,000 in local wages and salaries. Other types of businesses demonstrated similar returns.
Chains have a place in local economies, and I support the idea of a Marshall's or a Ross (having both seems a little redundant but what do I know), but ideally they'd act as an anchor for other more locally based businesses to round out the development.
guest #97, I wasn't the person who posted guest the #60 comment, but I don't think that is what the person was trying to say. Your claim seems to be additional information which is also helpful, but it doesn't negate the claim made by comment #60 that larger chains give back more DIRECTLY to the city through sponsorships of major civic events - something that small, independent stores can't do.
Guest 97 is absolutely right. Another study showed that independent businesses generate SEVENTY PERCENT more local economic impact per square feet than chain stores.
The study found that spending $100 at one of the neighborhood's independent businesses creates $68 in additional local economic activity, while spending $100 at a chain generates only $43 worth of local impact.
This study was conducted by the firm Civic Economics and looked at locally owned locally owned restaurants, retail stores, and service providers in a neighborhod on Chicago's north side and compared them with national chains competing in the same categories.
A neighborhood association commissioned the study and it hopes it will lead to that city adopting policies that limit the influx of chains into city neighborhoods and strengthen local businesses.
P.S. One made download copies of the study here:
http://www.civiceconomics.com/Andersonville/
Nice study, but the fact of the matter is that Target is going to be able to buy new uniforms for all the sports teams at Lincoln-Bell Multicultural Schol, while a small, funky local retailer is not going to be able to swing it.
these "columbia heights email list" folkers need to be confronted.
Whoa whoa whoa. We're all missing the real news here -- Lane Bryant. OMG, just think of the influx of fat people! Yegods!
OMG, just think of the influx of fat people!
Lane Bryant and Ruby Tuesday go together like fried onions and honey mustard dressing.
Wait a minute--could this be the most devious affordable housing scheme in the history of urban planning?
1. Create a shopping district that caters to middlebrow American tastes.
2. Watch the sidewalks with unattractive, fashion-oblivious people. People who don't know what a Denim Bar is. People who enjoy Rolling Rock. People who stand on the left.
3. Watch housing prices plummet as SINK and DINK hipsters flee your gleaming urban mall for edgier neighborhoods.
4. Repeat as necessary for H Street, Trinidad, Kingman Park ...
Is that Mt. Pleasant co-op still open? The last menu they list is from 2005. And if they are still open, do they stay in business into the winter, after the farmer's market closes?
the Mt Pleasant coop has nothing to do with the farmer's market and is open year-round.
obviously the produce selection is not as good in the winter.
note that it's a WORKING coop which means you sign up for a monthly shift. It is not a store.
And isn't there some semi-secret Mt. Pleasant co-op run by the guy who used to own the one where Tonic is now?
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oh no, the Mt Pleasant coop is almost 30 years old. the guy who owned the market where Tonic is now tried to put the coop out of business.