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Former Editor-in-Chief Ryan Avent writes a weekly column about neighborhood and development issues.
Not too long ago this site, along with the D.C. Council and much of the rest of the Washington area, was actively debating the incentive package for the new Washington Nationals stadium. At the time I was well aware of the questions about costs and benefits and was familiar with research on the subject suggesting that new stadia did not boost metropolitan economic performance (although baseball stadiums do tend to outperform those built for other sports, perhaps because they are in use more often). I nonetheless thought that the stadium might be a good idea, and one of the reasons, aside from my baseball fandom, was the role it might play in chasing metropolitan dollars—in shifting, that is, more suburban revenue into the District.
Whatever the arguments and outcomes of the stadium deal, it’s interesting to look at the position in which we found ourselves when we were still debating it. At a metropolitan level, the decision to build a stadium was probably, at least in strict economic terms, a wash, but when one introduces jurisdictional boundaries the chance to enhance the District’s relative position within the metro area suddenly makes the decision more rational.
The stadium deal is hardly the lone example of such a situation; at the moment, another is rising just outside the Capital Beltway in Oxon Hill, Maryland. The business Disneyland at National Harbor might end up being revenue gold for Prince George’s County, but it’s hard to imagine what more the developers might have done to offset the benefits of the project with regional costs. National Harbor promises to snarl traffic along the I-95/495 corridor, and the decision to build far away from Metro means that automobile alternatives are practically nil and that traveler trips and spending outside the compound will be sharply limited. (While a water taxi to Old Town is a great idea, it would take a second Miracle at Dunkirk to shift a meaningful amount of commerce over the river via boat).
Worst of all for the District, the National Harbor investment in convention space and hotels greatly limits the value of D.C.’s own new and expensive convention center and its associated hotels. It also increases the likelihood that the District and Prince George’s will waste valuable time and money throwing incentives after conventions, all in an effort to shift dollars from one side of the District line to the other.
These are just two small and discrete examples of one of the most serious planning problems facing Greater Washington: the failure to plan regionally. Other competitive actions operate continuously throughout the metropolitan area, leading to questionable distributions of people and jobs and causing an unfortunate amount of money to be spent on fights over the existing economic pie rather than on efforts to make the pie bigger.
Picture taken by iceman882.
For the farthest flung counties in Virginia and Maryland, the incentive for local leaders is to attract people and businesses into their borders, to bring the economic activity and associated tax revenue of the metro area out until they can also take a chunk. Good for them, but not for the region as a whole. As the metro area grows outward, infrastructure dollars are spread ever thinner, new roads soak up dollars that could be used to improve older, busier ones and provide transit alternatives. More residents live outside the reach of effective transit. Because the farthest flung counties tend to have the laxest development rules, growth occurs haphazardly, defying efforts to plan for efficient land use.
Closer in, counties already swelled by growth face their own set of incentives. Having gotten too big too fast for their limited infrastructure, they pull the ladder up after themselves, cutting growth sharply. While this might make perfect sense for an individual county, it’s hard on the metro area. When growth in new housing slows or stops, home prices begin to creep upward. Limited supply and rising prices cause new development to leapfrog slow growth counties, pushing out into the exurbs and contributing to sprawl, congestion, and extreme commutes.
Transportation planning has long been constrained by provincial selfishness. In hindsight, the decision to build freeways into the District seems like a poor one, as far as D.C. was concerned; by making it very easy to live outside the city and commute in, freeways encouraged many people—shockingly—to move out of the District and commute in. Virginia and Maryland seem to have learned the lesson well. While each state sends a quarter of a million workers into D.C. everyday, neither state seems all that interested in improving the quality of those trips, which are subject to steadily worsening bottlenecks. Road and rail priorities in Virginia and Maryland focus squarely on projects involving movement around the suburbs, leaving commuters into the District (to say nothing of those traveling within the District) in the lurch. Even if D.C. could strike some sort of bargain with inward commuters, using taxes or tolls to pay for improvements in their commutes, the competitive nature of Washington planning would reduce the benefits of any such agreement. With Virginia and Maryland all too happy to drag jobs farther and farther out into the suburbs, any deal raising the cost of travel in the center would simply provide an opportunity for those states to try to recruit people and jobs away from D.C. and into suburban counties.
In too many ways to count, the rational actions of individual places reduce the welfare of the metropolitan area as a whole, and these decisions continue to be made because there is so little coordination at a regional level. It’s maddening to local observers; millions of workers daily stream across state and county borders to work, play, and shop, and yet those counties and states govern as if they existed entirely in a vacuum.
As Steven Pearlstein noted this week, this illusion of isolation has strong effects on efforts to improve quality of life policies as well. It’s overwhelmingly clear that the best way to reduce the metro area’s carbon footprint is to shift more workers into the center of the region, and especially into the District. Every person who moves from the suburbs into the District reduces the metro area’s average gasoline consumption, and every move in the other direction raises it. Looking at regional transportation planning, one would never, ever guess that encouraging population growth in the center might have this outcome.
Affordable housing plans also fall apart given jurisdictional competition. As I noted a few weeks ago, a housing voucher program that didn’t apply to the metro area as a whole would be sharply less effective than one that did. The same is true for a host of poverty programs; it’s hard to marshal public support for District programs when those that benefit most from those programs often leave the District for the suburbs, taking the gains from public investment with them. It’s also clear that the broader the base of those programs, the more substantial will be the resources behind them and the opportunities available to those in them. And to be perfectly fair, the suburban jurisdictions probably know this. They probably realize that it is in their long term interest to work with the District on addressing problems like poverty and affordable housing, but lack of coordination prevents individual counties from making good on their intentions. Unless every county contributes to regional solutions, those that do are hurting themselves competitively, throwing local tax dollars at solutions on which non-participants can free ride. Every city, county, and district in the area may want to work together, but without a framework for coordinated action, the incentive for each is to look out for number one and number one only.
There is evidence that even modest efforts to promote regionalism can have big effects. To many, the Northern Virginia Transportation Authority may seem an unconstitutional and undemocratic manifestation of Richmond’s failure to govern well. Still, the NVTA has begun allocating funds for Metro and VRE, promising a long term commitment to infrastructure projects that benefit places beyond those with NVTA membership. When one reads Zach Schrag’s The Great Society Subway, it’s easy to see all the ways that regional cooperation led to the construction of an imperfect subway system, and yet cooperation led to the construction of the subway system -- one of the great triumphs in the history of Washington and one which continues to pay dividends to every jurisdiction throughout the area.
Not every decision needs to be made regionally. As a Washingtonian, I certainly appreciate the fact that my government can make decisions on policies concerning immigration and civil rights, among other things, independently of the suburbs, and I’m sure Virginians and Marylanders feel the same way. But there’s no avoiding the fact that making decisions on development and transportation planning in a vacuum costs the metro area dearly. Individual jurisdictions routinely undermine the efforts and investments of their neighbors, so rational planning for new growth becomes impossible. But what can be done? A brief search of Washington Post articles containing the names Fenty, Kaine, and O’Malley turns up promises to cooperate on security, but little else. Pearlstein advocates greater responsibility for the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, something I’ve argued for before. It sounds lovely, but where will the pressure to give that body more power come from? Who is demanding more regional interaction? Practically no one, as far as I can see.
The NVTA offers some hope. Northern Virginia seems increasingly willing to look at itself and to govern as a whole. At the same time, Arlington and Alexandria, as dense and central locations, share many common interests with the District. If the NVTA can begin thinking beyond county borders and can see itself as part of a metro region, it may serve as an example of how regional bodies can improve overall planning.
I’m as guilty as anyone at encouraging the District to respond to silence from our neighboring states by putting our own local development first, but somewhere along the line either voters or their leaders need to begin pushing for a broader perspective. It’s foolish to throw money away because we can’t find avenues for cooperative planning. We all ought to be livid at the lack of coordination. The Washington area can do much, much better.
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If regional concerns were being considered, would the line to Dulles really be the next line built? I doubt it. Decoupling the orange and blue lines would probably be next, which is exactly why regional decisions won't be made without external (Federal) pressure. Why else would Virginia do something that only helps it a little?
I hope DC is able to bring a solution to keep the United MLS team in the District. As Ryan suggests, stadia may not be the best allocation of resources when looking at it on a micro level, but the difference between DC and places like Pittsburgh is its status as an independant city/taxing entity. Suburban Pittsburghers are not pumping new dollars to Harrisburg. Suburban MD and VA fans are pumping new dolalrs to DC.
At the last public meeting about the new DC United stadium, the team owners were literally shouted down by Ward 8 residents, including one who yelled out "Who cares about soccer?" For reasons that defy logic, some Ward 8 residents are opposed to the DC United developing the currently abandoned and unusable Poplar Point site at no cost to the city. I suppose a trash strewn empty lot is better than a stadium, hotel, and viable businesses.
I can't imagine DC United will take this much longer, especially when the bulk of their fan base comes from the suburbs. At some point they will find a nice parcel in Fairfax County, build out there, and be done once and for all with DC. Just like Jack Kent Cooke did with the Redskins. While DC postured, and debated, and talked (again about a stadium to be built with 100% private money) PG County stepped up and got the Redskins.
So National harbor will snarl traffic and limit the value of places in the city with solid public transportation? I don’t buy it. Business travelers book in the city on a Metro line and go outside of it when they must due to cost.
hear hear! great commentary this week. Unfortunately, this type of situation is a "tragedy of the commons" that plays itself out with alarming frequency across the country. Solutions, anyone?
to guest #3,
often times it is about a stadium being in a centrally located place. DC is that place.
And, DC United wants to be in DC.
See this WTOP piece just today:
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=596&sid=1196718
And lastly, the Redskins' current location sucks.
The dearth of regional planning flows from the same me-first mindset that made "the tragedy of the commons" a working model. This is easy to recognize and avoidable, but we lack the institutions and structure to avoid individual decisions that harm the region as a collective.
These are one important thing DC lost when it gained Home Rule.
I fear we won't get them back without some regional emergency (and then it'd be too late), or some combination of a congressional vote and/or commuter tax reciprocity.
'Till then, I'm expecting it'll continue to be every jurisdiction for themselves.
Damn. Loganite beat me to my "tragedy of the commons" observation. Since this is so, let me extend by noting Jared Diamond notes the "benevolent dictator" is a cure. Thing is, benevolence is in short supply these days, and benevolence is usually considered subjective, anyway. But for transportation planning, that's what a empowered federal (or regional) authority would need to be.
I was just driving over the WW bridge into PG and was amazed at the national harbor site and the potential it has.....but I couldnt help but look over to the left at the Oxon Hill farm site which is about 5 times bigger than national harbor......just think if PG was successful in developing that site also.....jeez louise....that could be a great location for a new redskins stadium and maybe a new aquarium (think georgia aquarium) along with retail / office /residential.... if PG developed that site in conjunction with DC developing DC village, the southern DC/PG area has the potential to one of the most beautiful gateways into a city in the world......
"if PG developed that site in conjunction with DC developing DC village, the southern DC/PG area has the potential to one of the most beautiful gateways into a city in the world"
Wow, 11:32. You must not get out to many cities in the rest of the world. The day that Epcot convention center on the banks of the Potomac is more beautiful than, say, the approach to Venice or a ride up the Seine, is the day that there's actually a Georgetown Metro stop.
to guest 6,
The Redskins location may suck for you, but it is a gold mine for Snyder and the team. The stadium still sell out, there is a waiting list for tickets, and Snyder reaps money of parking that he would otherwise lose to Metro. There is a reason that the Redskins are considered the most valuable sports franchise in the country and it isn't because Dan Snyder is a bad businessman. Bad football mind, yes, but the guy knows how to make money.
As for DC United, I am sure they would rather be in DC, Jack Kent Cooke desperately wanted to be in DC, but at some point a smart businessman has to simply throw up his hands and make a move. DC United needs a new stadium somewhere. If DC can't make it happen, then DC will lose out. The United aren't going to wait forever until the "leaders" of Ward 8 decide that a free stadium, hotel, retail district, and park is better than an abandoned lot.
I am no a MLS or DC United Fan, but I hope for the sake of DC they get this deal done. Sadly, however, I've lived in this city long enough to not put my faith in any decision involving both Marion Barry and storefront-church pastors from SE.
It's not the leaders of Ward 8 that's holding this stadium up. There is a vocal minority of citizens that would oppose just about anything that sounds halfway decent.
The ball is truly in the court of the Executive Office of the Mayor. And, then that points directly to Fenty-appointed Neil Albert and his Office of the Deputy Mayor for Planning and Economic development. I don't know much about him, but he does not strke me instantly as a savvy deal-maker. Maybe I'm wrong.
If DC ever wants to see Poplar Point developed after the land transfer is complete in the Fall of this year, they will have to spend the money on the necessary infrastructure to get the job done to bring development, stadium included or not.
OR, we can let it sit like it is for the next 10 years while DC ponders where it is getting the $200 million from to do the necessary road improvements, sewage, and electricity.
They will have to do it anyway. DC United just wants that money to be committed right now. My take is DC is not totally ready to make that commitment. And, if they aren't, then be prepared for Poplar Point to stay exactly like it is right now for a long, long time!
You're right in that a smart businessman will go elsewhere.
"if PG developed that site in conjunction with DC developing DC village, the southern DC/PG area has the potential to one of the most beautiful gateways into a city in the world"
"Wow, 11:32. You must not get out to many cities in the rest of the world. The day that Epcot convention center on the banks of the Potomac is more beautiful than, say, the approach to Venice or a ride up the Seine, is the day that there's actually a Georgetown Metro stop."
Reid has got a point on this one. lol. and, I'll take it a step further..... if there is ever a Georgetown stop, National Harbor still won't compare.
Let's get specific. Are you talking about a PANYNJ, here, or a GLA? And if I throw my support behind a regional coordinating body, will District residents finally stop treating me like a contemptible racist parasite simply because I happen to live south of the Potomac? Hardly seems worth it otherwise.
#9, don't touch Oxon Hill Farm. It stays, as-is, in perpetuity.
DC must get past the point where we let a few loudmouth 'community activists' shouting nonsense at a community meeting dictate policy to us.
Poplar Point has the potential to bring in tens of millions a year in tax money.
I'd imagine the 'community activists' are also demanding additional community services, like public housing, better health care coverage from the city, etc.
Exactly how do they think these sorts of services are paid for?
It never ceases to amaze me.
DC cannot be run on the revenue from a few nail salons, liquor stores, and the income taxes of a few rich folks in Georgetown.
Public housing complexes on prime riverfront property (which is essentially what the community activists are demanding) is just about the stupidest thing the city could do. It'd be a dangerous slum within two years, and it'd be yet another huge revenue drain. And that area is already stacked to the rafters with public housing.
So enough already.
Hillman,
While I appreciate your point about 'community activists'; is it possible, however unlikely, that these folks are presenting an alternate point of view that should be considered in our endless rush to develop every parcel of land in the District?
I've got no love for the so-called 'poverty pimps' and hypocritical Bible banging preachers, but people don't stay poor just because they're stupid, lazy, and don't want anything more out of life. There are systematic, structural forces that keep a lot of people in poverty despite their best efforts. It's not as simple as "poor people suck, they deserve nothing and no consideration"; which is what you seem to be saying.
Peace,
HR
Why is there so much disdain for "community activists" seeking public housing handouts? How are they any different from wealthy sports franchise owners doing the same?
"The United aren't going to wait forever until the "leaders" of Ward 8 decide that a free stadium, hotel, retail district, and park is better than an abandoned lot. "
It's not "free" though, everything you described will cost the District in excess of $200 million, and there are no guarantees that that money will be made up anytime soon.
"DC cannot be run on the revenue from a few nail salons, liquor stores, and the income taxes of a few rich folks in Georgetown."
That's laughable. Check out the skyrocketing tax assessments for many small business owners all throughout the District--increases of 500% and more. City services and improvements are being paid by District citizens alright, but hardly on the backs of the Georgetown elite.
hillrat,
What realistic "alternative view" is being presented by those opposed to the DC United stadium?
The reality is that developers are not lining up to build east of the river. Without the DC United deal NOTHING will get done. Poplar Point will remain as it is today, an abandoned trash strewn eyesore. But I guess that is better than a soccer stadium, a hotel, and a dining-retail district.
How about a check cashing place, a bullet-proof window take out, and a hair braiding salon? Guess what, that is the only development you will ever see in SE unless the city MAKES something happen.
to 21
What makes you think the proposed commercial development you would be any less of an eyesore?
and btw, it' FOOTBALL, or FÚTBOL... a bunch of gabachos up in here
pardon me for thinking that a group of new buildings, filled with people having fun (at a sporting event, or shopping, or eating out) is less of an eyesore than an abandoned piece of land filled with broken shopping carts and other garbage. I guess I'm not hip enough to see how that is better than say, a new hotel which will actually attract people to the area.
Regional coordination is key, and I would never argue otherwise. However, DC needs to realize that it is the 800 pound gorilla in the region, and it needs to step up and act like it. The counter-arguments to the stadium are distractions and excuses for people to get up and arms about all of society's problems. If we allow these distractions to influence our decisions that have significant impacts on the future of DC's econonic outlook, the problem will only get worse as all of the surrounding areas, who are looking out for themselves, will be only too eager to step up to the plate while the district balks yet again. The leadership needs to step up, and grow a pair, and makes decisions that benefit DC, not a vocal minority who can't see the forest for the trees.
Why is it either or between neglected urban blight or some stadium/retail development paradigm? I'd settle for an ounce of genuine vision, rather than the same tired development plans that don't really serve the intended beneficiaries. "Grow a pair" -- you mean ignore your constituents and capitulate to your commercial real estate development constituency? How Anthony Williams of you! That seems like the exact opposite of owning a pair.
I'd tell you many games DC United plays per year, but I genuinely don't know. If you took of poll of DC residents, I'd wager the number of people who don't know is significantly higher than than those who do know. I won't even get into who can explain offsides.
guest 21 - F*&k if I know, but is it too much to ask that we consider the possibility that this isn't just some sort of shakedown or narrow-minded provincial objection? Maybe you think folks over in Ward 8 should just start shufflin' their feet and saying, "OK, yes massa!" when there is some sort of proposed development in the area?
Why all the objection to a little debate on the issue; if you're (this is the royal you, not guest 21) so sure that you've got the right idea then why not listen to people's objections and address them in a forthright manner?
The developers are asking the city to pony up $200M now. Those are funds that are going to have to be diverted from somewhere else and are not going to be addressing the problems we have now. I'm well aware that the city will almost certainly recoup their initial investment many times over, but when will that happen? Ten, twenty, thirty years from now?
Hey, I could care less if the stadium goes in Ward 8, but I care a lot that it happens somewhere in the District. The Ward boundaries are supposed to delineate representation, not the kind of provincial turf-fighting over real estate that we are now seeing. Ward 8 doesn't want it. Ok, fine, on to the next. But collectively the DC govt needs to realize it's in everyone's best interests to keep the stadium in DC, and work out the details amongst themselves. If each Ward thinks "locally" on an equal basis with the surrounding suburban counties, we're gonna be in trouble. DC needs to "grow a pair" and operate as a single entity with a common goal of prosperity and maintaining itself as a center of job growth and residency.
Can't we just recycle the previous few years' comments on the other stadium debate? It's not like the arguments seem to have changed.
hillrat,
I fail to see how Ward 8 residents could lose on this deal. The costs will be borne by the entire city, not just Ward 8.
Right now Ward 8 residents have in Poplar Point an abandoned lot filled with trash. Under this plan they will get a stadium, a riverfrong park, a hotel, new stores and new restaurants. In addition, Ward 8 kids will get to use the new soccer facility and the clinics, etc that the United will host. Soccer is the most popular sport for kids in America, and this plan will allow kids in Ward 8 to get involved in that sport (much like the tennis center in Ward 8 has done).
Also, Ward 8 residents will get priority for jobs building and working in the new hotel. so lets recap. Ward 8 gets, a new riverfron park, access to a sport for their kids, and jobs. Sounds terrible to me.
Tell me again, what does Ward 8 want? Someone to come in and with 100% of their own money build an auto factory to provide unskilled workers with $35 an hour jobs with benefits and reitrement? There hasn't been one of those built in the US in 50 years, so if you are holding out for that, you can enjoy the next half-century of trash strewn lots and having to cross the Anacostia River to go to work, buy something nice, or eat at a restaurant that doesn't also sell fake roses with crack pipe stems.
maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the city will have to "pony up" the $200 million for infrastructure (roads, sewers, etc.) for any developer that may use the land.
guest 29 - I'm not saying that I think this is bad deal for Ward 8, only that we should give people's objections a fair hearing.
Perhaps the people protesting want the egress to be from the east instead of the west to preserve some historical landmark or want something that's there to be incorporated into the complex. Maybe someone just wants to get a few snouts in the trough for no-show jobs. If it turns out to be the same shady preachers and poverty pimps trotting out the same tired ass bromides and racial hysteria broadsides, then f&^k 'em and let's move forward. But until we (the city, developers, and chattering classes) listen to what's being said, we won't know for sure.
Quoth DCist Ryan:
"Sane growth of the Metro area demands the establishment of a cross-jurisdictional coordinating entity. We need to stop thinking as individual municipalities and start working together as one, or things are going to get much worse."
Quoth the DCist Readers:
"Blah blah blah Poplar Point blah blah blah D.C. United blah blah blah Ward 8."
So concludeth the discussion.
HillRat:
I haven't been to said community meetings, but nearly every report I've read said the 'community activists' are pissed because it's soccer and they don't play soccer and because they are demanding 'affordable housing', which is code for Section 8 housing (apparently the inclusion of hundreds of units of workforce housing on the soccer site wasn't good enough for them).
Yes, that's right. Section 8 waterfront housing. In a ward that is made up almost exclusively of only poor and lower middle class people now.
Not exactly a recipe for improvement.
And your blanket statement about poor people sucking and that we should do nothing to help that you attribute to me is a bit silly. I've never said anything of the kind. I've said that a whole bunch of public policies aimed to help poor people actually do the exact opposite.
But, yes, by and large many of DC's problems can be directly linked to people not taking responsibility for their own lives, expecting government or someone else to foot their bills forever, and believing they are magically entitled to a life free from work or anything unpleasant.
If we lived in downtown Bugtussle and we had 100 poor people fighting over the three existing jobs, then I'd have sympathy. But we don't live in Bugtussle. We live in a fairly large city, where employers are begging for workers. The region's unemployment is below 5 percent. It's a very strong job market.
Yet many able-bodied DC residents that could work don't bother to try to find work or to in any way better themselves if it involves significant effort.
And for that I have no sympathy.
HillRat:
From what I understand the millions the city has to pony up have to be done regardless if any real development is done there. You have to build roads, sewer, etc., pretty much no matter what goes there.
Even for acres more Section 8 housing (nearly guaranteed to become unsafe and hellish within three years).
And I learned a long time ago that 'community activists' often don't represent the actual residents of the area.
Quoth Anonymous Idiot #32:
"I have nothing to add to the conversation."
Yet many able-bodied DC residents that could work don't bother to try to find work or to in any way better themselves if it involves significant effort. And for that I have no sympathy.
So you're going to make a statement like the above and then act like it's ridiculous that I extrapolated that you think poor people suck; what else is someone supposed to conclude from statements like that? Be serious man, your contempt for the less fortunate almost drips from the screen.
Maybe this should be your new theme song.
Hillrat:
Are you really suggesting that there are no able-bodied DC residents that simply won't work?
Really?
I guarantee you I can go within ten blocks of my house and find you at least 100 people that haven't worked, say, 30% of their adult lives, even though jobs have been available. Unless you count panhandling and petty theft as 'working'.
I never said ALL the nonworking poor in DC are lazy. I just said some are. Big difference.
And I've often posted lengthily (if perhaps not eloquently) in various blogs about how we don't do nearly enough for the actual working poor in the US, in everything from health care to housing.
I'm quite the liberal when it comes to socioeconomic issues, like affordable housing (but you have to actually work for it if you are able) and health care. It's just that I, like many liberals, am sick of decades of watching people sit on their asses and collect benefits that I pay for, all the while creating yet another generation of young thugs that jack me and my friends up, given half a chance.
But I'm a liberal that is sick of the never-ending BS that some in the liberal community dream up about all poverty being systemic and not having anything to do with people, you know, sitting on their asses and not getting jobs.
I come from what some would ungenerously call 'rural trailer trash'. My family was dirt poor, in large part because of some bad investments my parents made (they got involved in a religous scam that ended taking all our money.... every last cent) and because they had some screwed up ideas about how 'God would provide' even if they had more kids than they could reasonably afford.
And we were surrounded by the pathologies of rural poverty. The drug and alcohol abuse. The sense of despair. And the disdain and ridicule of our neighbors.
But when it became obvious that their choices had been poor, they buckled down and worked their way out of it, in FAR more difficult economic circumstance than you find in DC today.
There were very few jobs in our poor county, and we took whatever jobs there were. My father, holder of multiple advanced degrees, picked up trash by the side of the road for the county, to support his family. My mother, another holder of advanced degrees, did any demeaning job she could find. And each of us kids took whatever kind of additional work we could.
We even moved several times, in search of better jobs.
Tell me. How many poor DC residents even consider moving to find employment?
I fully understand the pathologies that exist in relation to poverty. I've lived them first hand.
Here in DC employers are begging for workers, and have been for at least the last decade. Sure, it may not be fun or glamorous work. But it's work, and often times it can lead to a real career, with a decent wage. And public housing is cheap and available. Simply put, if you can't get a job in DC you simply aren't trying.
No, it may not be a job you want or like, and that sucks, but there are only so may supermodel and rap star jobs out there. And turns out even for those jobs you have to show up and work.
Yet often jobs in DC go unfilled, or filled by immigrants.
As for the term 'less fortunate'..... if you've sat on your ass for most of your adult life and only worked when your government benefits ran out or you could no longer scam off friends or relatives, then you aren't 'less fortunate'. You're a shiftless bum. There is a difference.
That's why I have a problem with 'community activists' demanding yet more Section 8 housing and fighting to end development projects that would bring actual jobs to a poor area for the stupidest of reasons (like that their kids don't play soccer). Section 8 housing, as administered in DC, encourages people to sit on their butts and do nothing.
Whereas workforce housing helps provide affordable housing, but you actually have to work.
One reason I feel so strongly...... one of my many jobs to pay for college was lifeguarding. In a public housing complex pool.
That experience taught me a lot.
Yes, some of the residents got up and went to work. And some were at least half-heartedly looking for work.
But many would roll out of bed at noon, lounge by the pool until closing time, all the while telling me how hard their lives are.
At the end of the summer those same folks were still unemployed, still lounging by the pool, still with absolutely no plans to actually get a job. And quite a few had been there for years, doing exactly that.
And it was pretty common to hear those people laugh at those that went looking for work or actually got jobs. They thought of them as suckers.
And at night their kids would climb the pool fence and shit in the pool and on the pool equipment.
I got to know a lot of these folks that summer. And I realized that many (but not all) of them were taking up space and resources that could have been utilized by a family that had actual desperate need for lodging and services while trying to better themselves.
All the while I was eating Ramen Pride, working multiple jobs, and saving every cent so I could afford to educate myself. These folks were living much better than I, and they had no plans to actually get jobs.
I guarantee you that if I go back to that very same complex (it still exists) then I'd run into some of the exact same people that were there 20 years ago, probably sitting in the exact same spot by the pool that someone else's tax money is paying for.
During that 20 years I've busted my ass, working 80 hour weeks, in some pretty crappy jobs - from the closest you can get to modern ditch-digging (pounding holes by hand in sand dunes to build fencing all day) to the soul-numbing blandness and stupidity of a shit 'support staff' job in a DC law firm.
So spare me the lecture about the 'less fortunate' as you are indiscriminately applying it to all the poor. You want to talk less fortunate? Try being poor in any country except the US and European countries. Those people are truly 'less fortunate'. Or even try being poor in a crappy rural county in the US, where there are no jobs, no city amenities, no public transit for work, no nothing.
Those here in DC (and in US cities generally) sucking up taxpayer services while doing nothing to better themselves aren't 'less fortunate'.
To continue my rant...
"Less fortunate" are soldiers returning from Iraq with missing limbs and brain trauma and pathetically inadequate VA benefits. A good number of these folks will eventually end up needing affordable housing. But we've already spent our public housing funds on the woman who churns out five kids by age 25 and hasn't worked a day in her life (unless you count lining up her next crack score a job). And what money we had left we spent transporting non-working street bums off of H Street NE back and forth to various hospitals, at a cost of tens of thousands per year.
"Less fortunate" are those working poor that are working 60 hours a week, then returning home to try to raise their kids right and trying to educate them right because the overpaid and underworking DC school officials certainly ain't helping with their education. And, again, they'd love some affordable housing help from the government, as they continue to better themselves.
But, again, out of luck. Again, same reason. And because as a matter of policy we punish those who get a job, cutting off any assistance they were getting.
So maybe it's just that we view who is 'less fortunate' differently.
Hillman doth protest too much, methinks.
Hate the poor all you want to, it doesn't cost me anything; but don't act like I should be obliged to sign off on your hateful feelings towards people who don't live as you think they should.
In my estimation you're overlooking two important differences between yourself and those you have so much scorn for. First of all, as a general rule, "rural trailer trash" don't have multiple advanced degrees much less marry someone who also has multiple graduate degrees. You're low-balling your socio-economic background, it's disingenuous and makes you look like a phony. Your story is compelling enough without embellishing it, by stretching the truth like this you give people reason to question the veracity of all your other statements.
Secondly, you're white and as much as you (and just about every white person I've ever met) don't want to hear it, that makes a *huge* difference and gives you a tremendous advantage. When was the last time you were asked if you were a single parent during a job interview? That happened to me the last time I was interviewing even though I was wearing my wedding band. The guy that asked was a total freak and said many other wildly inappropriate things during the interview, but even so, I sincerely doubt he would have asked a white guy that same question.
In the immortal words of Ice Cube, "Check yourself before wreck yourself."
Maybe you need to examine your own feelings more carefully. Why is it that this resentment and rage comes flooding out of you whenever this issue comes up? Is it because you've worked your ass off to make something of yourself and you think everyone should have to suffer the same privations as you in order to have a home and food to eat? Why do you care? Suppose your tax bill was cut by a third and all of the poor people who were living off the fat of the land are now homeless and hungry, how much does that really help you or is it that you want the poor to suffer and be totally miserable instead of mostly miserable?
I have nothing to add to the conversation.
Or, alternatively, #32 could be interpreted as a criticism of yet another racially charged comment war over District housing and development issues in response to an essay about overcoming the "provincial selfishness" of the numerous municipalities in our sprawling metro area. Forty comments later, we've concluded that Ward 8 hates soccer, or futbol, or whatever; and that poor people may or may not be lazy. Trees versus forest indeed.
Well said, Hillman.
I live in northeast, and in a very tiny condo. Everyday I see section 8 hood-rats enjoying a huge apartment/rowhouse that is 3 to 4 times bigger than my meager 400 spft condo that I pay for with my own money, from working a crapppy support staff job in the government. I have to work very hard, and for very little while those who work hardly (or not at all), enjoy much.
Lil'doodoo never works while I waste my time in the office to live in an over priced apartment in the same neighborhood...the system works?
Anonymous Idiot #40 - Actually I think folks here generally agree with the central thesis of Ryan's essay. The problem is how does the region go about dealing with the narrow-minded provincial concerns of various municipalities? Unfortunately in Metro DC this means addressing race issues; sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but it's just a fact of life around these parts.
Anonymous Idiot #41 - If the section 8 hood rats have such a good deal for themselves, why don't you just quit your job, collect welfare, and move into public housing?
Hillrat:
You don't know me, yet you feel the ability to say I'm lying about my family history?
My parents had advanced but useless degrees. Theology and English degrees. Pretty much useless in rural Midwest America.
Two parents with no real job skills and worthless degrees, that had given all their money to a religious organization they thought would care for them and us indefinitely. And eight kids. How much did we have to our name? A ten year old station wagon and about $300. And no extended family to rely on, except one grandmother on a pension, five states away.
Let's put it this way. We learned what plants in the woods and fields around us were edible so that we could make our meals stretch further. Turns out it's best to avoid mushrooms, but dandelions are ok.
I'm sorry if that's not poor enough for you to think I qualify to know what the fuck I'm talking about.
What bothers me is that the lazy people I describe are dooming their kids to the same sort of existence, and greatly increasing the urban crime rate. In that respect, they are not just hurting themselves - they are hurting their kids. And they are hurting me.
And what I hate more than anything is the hubris. They won't work, but they demand that I pay for their lodging, their health care, for the incarceration of their kids, etc.
After I worked for decades to make sure me and mine never had to live like that again, it does indeed chap my ass to see others bitch about their free houses and free medical care that I'm paying for.
If that makes me angry, then so be it.
Sounds like a good idea, Hillrat. But I was raised by parents (who neither have high school degrees, let alone advance degrees) who enstilled values in me. My father and mother believed you had to work hard for what you wanted. My mother didn't work, so I came from a single income family. I also had five siblings. I will continue to work hard for I want/have, but I expect the same from welfare pimps who are using my tax dollars to live glorified ghetto lives.
Hillrat:
Ah, race. Now we're getting to your real complaint. That I just ain't black enough to have had it rough. Because we all know there are no poor white people, right? Heck, I don't even think white people get cancer or get into car accidents. And we're all born with a secret handshake that automatically gets us jobs, hip apartments, lavish European vacations, and BMWs.
And white people are all born with an anti-lightning gene. That's why we all play golf - we know lightning won't strike us because we're white. Oh, and also because we're all fabulously independently wealthy, and we have an entire network of other wealthy white people looking out for us from birth.
Again, for the jillionth time, my race in DC counts against me even if you don't think so (as you've repeatedly insinuated, a 'little' racism against whites in DC is no big deal and should just be accepted as par for the course and I should just get over it). Being white in DC is a huge impediment, in many private circles and certainly in dealing with the local government.
Was being white an advantage in rural America? Sure. Just like being black is often a huge advantage in urban America (especially DC).
But it absolutely was not a guarantee of success. I still had to work my butt off.
And of there's my being gay. Not exactly a huge bonus in the redneck world I grew up in, or a bonus here in DC, in a lot of black circles.
I'll trade you being black versus me being gay in nearly all of rural America. And in many parts of black America.
And let's not forget that at least it's illegal for you to be denied housing or a job for being black. It's perfectly legal for people to refuse to hire me or give me a place to live because I'm gay, in many states (albeit not in DC).
So when you are asked if you are a single parent in an interview, at least you may still get the job. And if you don't you can sue. If I'm asked about my family and I answer truthfully, I'll definitely not get the job in most areas. And I may get my ass kicked on the way out the door.
And if you are denied an apartment you can sue. I cannot, in many states.
Hillman,
Your endless sanctimonious tirades will at some point need to be backed up with something other than dubious anecdotes. You are spouting Reaganesque poverty caricatures.
I have no doubt that there are shiftless individuals among the poor, but your are making characterizations that have a tenuous connection to the reality of poverty for the most part.
I think that your viewpoints should be heard, but you aggressively dominate nearly every one of these discussions, saying the same things over and over in ludicrously long tirades. It has gotten tiresome.
-sqdc
You don't know me, yet you feel the ability to say I'm lying about my family history?
OMG! I said nothing of the sort, here's exactly what I said:
I concede that you have a compelling life story; I'm recognizing your struggle against long odds and saying that the simple, unvarnished truth stands on its own! I was merely warning you against making statements that will give others reason to question how honest you're being about your background.Seriously dude, you're more sensitive than an engorged clit.
For every lazy unemployed, there is one eager illegal immigrant working.
Hillrat:
"Embellishing". That's nice talk for lying.
As is 'stretching the truth'.
"Disingenuous". That means lying.
You used all three phrases to describe me.
Then you say you aren't saying I'm lying?
Hillman - You win. I can't go through this with you anymore. To summarize:
- Poor people suck
- You work hard
- Everyone in DC is against you because you're white and gay
- Black people are discriminated against less than gay people
- There is no housing discrimination against black people because it's illegal
- There is no employment discrimination against black people because it's illegal
SQDC:
Nobody is forcing you to read my posts.
And when I'm called a liar then I'm going to respond in detail. As would you, or anyone else that values their good name.
As for tenuous connections to poverty..... Once again, I'm not stating that all poverty is because people are lazy. I'm saying some people are lazy. Some can afford to be. Some cannot. Those that cannot often then demand free shit from the rest of us, in the form of free housing, medical, incarceration for kids, etc.
As for Reaganesque, as much as I abhor most of what that guy did, he did have a point when he pointed out the excesses and negative aspects of the welfare system as practiced in America.
But unlike him I'm more than willing to discuss allocating resources to actually fix the problem, not just give people free shit and wait for them to raise kids for the ever-growing prison industry.
Hillrat:
While I'd love to declare victory and do a little dance, it ain't that simple, as even in your sarcastic summary you mischaracterize my points.
For instance, I never said there was no discrimination against black people. I just said that at least it is technically illegal.
I do truly wish we could discuss this substantively. If you'd care to do that, I'm more than willing.
SQDC is more eloquent than me so I'll just quote him or her:
So I guess that's a no to a substantive discussion?
That's a shame.
I'll admit I'm long-winded, and I try to rein that in. But that's hardly a reason to not engage in dialog, and it's often after someone challenges my basic points as being made up, racist, classist, or whatever else they think will discredit me without actually addressing my argument itself. And it's even less of a reason to accuse me of lying in lieu of a substantive response.
So, again, I'm open to a substantive discussion anytime.
Jeebus. I leave town for a plushie convention, and everything goes to s**t in here.
This less-fortunate one-upsmanship is one of the reasons why Ryan's join-hands-and-sing-kumbaya vision of regional planning will always end bobbing in the crapper. What he really means is, "why aren't we taxing fuel and vehicles more and putting that money into Metro?" I'll tell you why. I'ts because NoVA is wedded to vehicular transit. Ask a Virginian to give up driving for bus and Metro, you're better off asking a junkie to give up smack in favor of low-impact aerobics. Dulles rail extentions are too little too late; I can't imagine the Tysons Station having that much impact on regional congestion, considering how screwed the roads will be during construction. Their only hope is that the ex-urb real estate market continues to implode, forcing more folks into the inner suburbs, where the existing infrastructure can support them.
Meanwhile, Annapolis wallows in $1.2 billion worth of defecit. Don't see them coming to the till any time soon. And even if they did, you'd get the same political stagnation that kept the ICC on the books for damn near three decades.
And DC continues to worship at the golden calf of Metro. Digging more billion-dollar holes in the ground may be fine for a couple hundred thousand local residents. But you still have 8 million people in the region dependent on their cars, and those are the voices the pols are listening to. And they're not complaining about the stench of humanity on the subway, they're complaining about why more people arent't taking the Metro so THEY can have more room on the road.
What it comes down to is that they're all in it for themselves. DC couldn't fix the poverty problem, so they axed benefits and demolished the projects and the poverty fled to PG County. NoVA couldn't get cash from Richmond to fix the roads, so they started handing out $1,000 speeding tickets. And Maryland? Well, I don't even know what the hell their problem is. It's like, when the region decided on how they were going to address commuting, VA's answer was to build more roads, MD's answer was to stop building roads, and DC's answer was to do neither and put all their eggs in the Metro basket. TAke your pick of what ideology you agree with, and move accordingly.
You want regional cooperation? Just let DC continue down the road of extreme poverty living just downstairs from extreme wealth, turning it into a polished, chrome-plated turd of hiptards and DINKs, and leave the slug-burgs to the boring, crotchfruit-poopin' muddle-classes. Because when all the cool, hip, small DC businesses finally fold because their taxes have gone up 300-500% but their incomes haven't, you will have PLENTY of affordable housing for squatters to do their thing in.
Now can we please go back to bashing Ryan's public transit fetish?
Also tiresome are your rhetorical deflections:
Nobody is forcing you to read my posts.
No, but anybody who wants to follow and participate in a discussion has to follow them - often it devolves into a one-on-one with you because nobody else has the patience. This is a bad way to discuss issues.
I do truly wish we could discuss this substantively. If you'd care to do that, I'm more than willing.
This is another one you trot out regularly. You spend hundreds of words spewing stereotypes and anecdotes of questionable veracity, and when the other guy finally loses patience, it's him/her who won't discuss things "substantively".
-sqdc
SQDC:
So discuss already. What's stopping you?
And here we go again with the 'questionable veracity'.
Can you and Hillman get past calling me a liar already?
I'd argue that a lot of people stop posting with me because after they've called me a racist and classist and nun-beater they don't really have much left to say. Especially if all they started with is the worn-out cliched anti-poverty slogans which 40 years of real life experience have shown to be inadequate.
"Because when all the cool, hip, small DC businesses finally fold because their taxes have gone up 300-500% but their incomes haven't"
I guess I'm left with the perverse hope that rising taxes will somehow force landlords to lower their expectations for commercial rental rates because, with 1st Tier commercial spaces in Dupont going for $100/sf triple-net, and 2nd Tier ones going for $75/sf triple-net, I don't know that in a few years there'll be many places left for me to drop my few dollars, anyway.
Unless I want to drop them in some multinational chain bank or on $12 drinks at a nightclub.
Sorry. Obviously meant Hillrat, not myself. Or is that yet another 'questionable veracity' posting on my part?
I guess I should add that I'd be thrilled if Ward 8 would step up and take some of the development pressure off of Ward 2, 'cause we got too much of a good thing going on.
Christ on his throne, I can't believe I'm actually responding to this instead of working!
1. I never accused you of lying. I used the words disingenuous and embellish very specifically because they don't mean lie. I also said that:
But of course you never acknowledged that statement for reasons that I don't understand.2. If this you reigning it in, I'd hate to see what happens when you really cut loose.
3. I have no idea what your argument actually is. All I saw was hysterical screed against the poor and that's what I addressed. If you say some bullshit, I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag; it's as simple as that.
In this town disingenous and embellish mean lie. Pure and simple. Stringing them all together instead of flat out calling someone a liar is either clever or cowardly, depending on how you choose to look at it.
You used those very kind words quoted above after accusing me of lying, and after I called you on it.
But my argument is simple. Our policies toward the poor are fucked to the point that they actually punish the working poor, they encourage people to do nothing on the taxpayer dime for generations, and they disgust even liberals like me. We quite often reward people for sitting on their asses and popping out kids or sitting on the corner and bumming for change all day.
And we ignore the working poor in favor of losers that won't work.
And these policies create cesspools of crime and hell. Witness nearly every major US city in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
I'd explain in detail, but I've already done that and been told that I'm far too long-winded.
And, yet again, I haven't had any screed against 'the poor', hysterical or otherwise. I reserve my comments for the lazy nonworking poor, a distinction you fail to make.
to 57
You seem really proud of your use of the term "crotchfruit" and seem compelled to use it ad nauseum. Yes... we're all impressed with your cleverness, so give it a rest.
Hillman:
Since poverty is an issue that seems to concern you, you might want to bone up on the various definitions and categories being considered and used when discussing things like "affordable" and "workforce" housing.
Anonymous Coward [65] - Sorry to irritate your delicate sensibilities. It's times like these that I want to run to the closet and bury my head in my mother's wedding gown and cry my little eyes out, but I'll try to be strong for the crotchfruit's sake. I'm open for suggestions for something other than "crotchfruit." Sprogs? Booger machines? Fart factories? Creepy lil snotfaced bastards? Precious little miracles?
Like I was telling my crotchfruit this morning, I said, "Kids, don't let anyone pee in your face and tell you it's raining. Because when life gives you pee, make pee-aid."
Why do you hate children, motherhood, and America?
And Ryan, I'll support expanded Metro service at the core if you'll support actually making downtown's highways actually go someplace, instead of just spill out onto New York Avenue or dead-end at Pennsylvania Avenue. Because offramps that spit cars out in front of traffic lights does nobody any good: not the drivers or the residents who have to breathe idling exhaust.
Yeah, this regional cooperation is teh suxxorz.
Guest:
That's a valid point. Affordable and workforce can mean different things to different people.
It's an oversimplification, but by 'workforce' I mean that the working poor get a break BEFORE those that won't work get a break. I use the term workforce more as a qualifier - the emphasis being on 'work' as opposed to income limits or such.
Whether that means cops and firefighers or fast food workers is a very good question.
Beyond that, the question will always arise - why should we do things like provide help for teachers or firefighters (as we sometimes do now), but not librarians or legal secretaries? These are valid questions.
But my main qualifier is that people asking for free housing from taxpaying fellow citizens should be willing to work, if able, and have a moral responsibility to do all they can to keep their kids from terrorizing the very people paying for their lodging.
As for affordable, that's equally hard to quantify. Does that mean a three bedroom apartment in Georgetown should be something you can pay rent on with a restaurant workers salary? Or a firemans?
I think the first step in defining 'affordable' is to delineate between trendy, desireable high cost neighborhoods, where you get very little bang for your buck, and actual lodging choices that offer more. Quite often, though, those lodging choices will be in the burbs, which is apparently something many in DC think is beneath them, no matter how poor they are.
And as I've posted on (at great length) before, we don't have an affordable housing crisis. We have a safe housing crisis. Big difference. There's plenty of affordable housing in DC. It's just that more often than not it's in really high crime areas.
In this town disingenous and embellish mean lie. Pure and simple. Stringing them all together instead of flat out calling someone a liar is either clever or cowardly, depending on how you choose to look at it.
I wish I knew how to quit you.
There is no definition of "rural trailer trash" that I have ever seen, read, or heard of that included a married couple where both partners have graduate degrees. You know it, I know it, and everyone reading this knows it; just admit that you engaged in some of overheated hyperbole to make your personal narrative a bit more compelling and we can dispose of this issue. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that I was never calling you a liar? You don't get to decide what words mean, the dictionary does.
What I really don't get is that you say you want to have substantive discussion and the first thing you do is call me a coward. Yeah, I think that was in Chapter 1 of "How to Win Friends and Influence People."
I agree that our policies toward the poor are totally fucked, what I don't agree with is your use of phrases like:
We quite often reward people for sitting on their asses and popping out kids
being black is often a huge advantage in urban America (especially DC)
it does indeed chap my ass to see others bitch about their free houses and free medical care that I'm paying for
they demand that I pay for their lodging, their health care, for the incarceration of their kids, etc
Yes, that's right. Section 8 waterfront housing.
It's not like every person who lives in Section 8 housing or gets Section 8 housing vouchers is a lazy reprobate. My Grandmother who worked her ass off every day of her life (and made the world's best apple pie, seriously you would slap your own Grandmother for serving you whatever crap she had dished up if you tasted her pie); whether it was taking care of her family, taking in washing, cleaning other people's homes, or any of the dozens of other jobs she held in her life; received Section 8 housing vouchers for about the last ten years of her life.
This thread is exactly why I started putting my energy in places other than DCist. The thinly veiled racism and classism here has really started to get threadbare.
Hillman: I wasn't asking what *you* meant when you used those terms, I was asking you to learn what DC means when it applies those terms to (dare I say?) projects. You'll need to learn terms like Area Median Income, understand that AMI figures assume families of 4 and that they don't equate to DC Median Income, and understand what % income bracket is being targeted.
Hint: Someone who makes less than $20-30,000 a year would struggle to afford the units being produced.
Anonymous Idiot #70 - I agree; but if everyone who sees it that way bails, then what? People just get to spew their racist/classist bile unchecked? Homie don't play dat! Login and join the battle.
70&72- agreed!
-71
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My comic sensibilities are more offended than anything else.
Alternate euphomism for kids? How about 'YOU, once'?
My comic sensibilities are more offended than anything else.
What? Crotchfruit is hilarious, although WifeRat doesn't really see it that way.
Crotchfruit is tired. Try harder.
Hillrat:
Once again...
I never said everyone in Section 8 is lazy or abusing the system.
Not once have I said that. Just like I've NEVER said all poor people are lazy. But of course that hasn't stopped you from attributing those words to me, repeatedly.
It'd be nice if you could just acknowledge that distinction and we could move forward.
I said the system was designed to allow abuse and that some abuse it, to the detriment of themselves, their kids, society around them, and those that are more deserving of our help. And that anyone that has the audacity to point this out is accused of everything from classism to racism (which is ironic in this case because the example I gave of the housing complex I lifeguarded at was probably 80 percent white).
It sounds like in your Grandmother's case Section 8 worked exactly like it should - helping an elderly person who contributed to society for most of her life.
And exactly what part of my upbringing do you think I'm lying about? Please be specific and I'll address that. You can call it what you want. You are calling me a liar (lacking in candor is lying, regardless of how cute you want to get with it), and I resent that. Perhaps you think "lack of candor" isn't lying. I do. So please tell me exactly what part you think I'm making up. And why you think so.
And actually I said your doing all but outright calling me a liar was either clever or cowardly. You chose cowardly.
But come to think of it, that's exactly what it is. It's the pussy way of calling someone a liar. Or the passive-aggressive way, if you prefer. Funny how you'll call me a racist at the drop of a hat (see post 72). But you beat around the bush when you accuse me of lying.
But to use your lame phrasing - please point out the exact 'overheated hyperbole' you think I've used.
You don't see me saying your Grandmother is a figment of your imagination or made-up to further your point, so grant me the same courtesy with my personal circumstance.
You seem hung up on the fact that my parents had advanced education yet still had crappy jobs. This ain't rocket science. Their degrees were in Theology and English (literature emphasis, I believe). Not exactly a big demand for those skills in rural America.
And we were definitely in the economic class most would call trailer trash, regardless of education. In fact, for quite some time we actually lived in a trailer. Or two, to be precise.
Or, do you think I'm lying about that as well?
My point, before we got off track by your repeated dispersions on my honesty, was that people with a lot less opportunity than many in DC work hard and make a contribution to society. While some in DC choose not to take advantage of their opportunities.
And that is a point which you have yet to address or even acknowledge.
Hillrat:
I also find it ironic (and a bit sad) that you'll gladly label my posts here racist (absent any legitimate reason to do so), but you are the one that repeatedly told me that black DC city employees treating white people worse than they treat blacks was no big deal, and you spent an entire thread mocking my descriptions of such behavior.
So I'm racist if I discuss poverty issues (I mentioned race only after you did so gratuitously), but it's not racist (or at a minimum not a big deal) if city employees treat people like crap based solely on the color of their skin, as long as those people are white?
And your suggestion that white people are automatically born to privilege and advantage isn't racist? But it's racist of me to point out that being black in DC has it's advantages?
Why the double standard?
Doesn't look like the Nationals Stadium is anywhere near being a done deal, seeing as it's located on Federal land and the transfer, if it happens at all, is likely to take a couple years. Did the Council even bother asking the Park Service if they could have the property? It sounds like USPS was just told about it last week or something.
Was Poplar Point part of the larger land transfer passed by Congress last year? Or did that not go through yet?
Hillman and Hillrat: May I suggest that a root source of misunderstanding between you two centers about varying ideas of money and class, and the association of these two concepts?
From Hillman: "I come from what some would ungenerously call 'rural trailer trash'. My family was dirt poor, in large part because of some bad investments my parents made (they got involved in a religous scam that ended taking all our money.... every last cent) and because they had some screwed up ideas about how 'God would provide' even if they had more kids than they could reasonably afford."
From Hillrat: "First of all, as a general rule, "rural trailer trash" don't have multiple advanced degrees much less marry someone who also has multiple graduate degrees. You're low-balling your socio-economic background..."
I think it's possible to de-escalate and diffuse by agreeing that money and class do not necessarily (or even as a general rule) go and in hand.
Crotchfruit keeping you up too late, Monkey?
USPS is the post office, NPS is parks. As in: I'm going to USPS to mail my crotchfruit to an NPS property in Barataria, LA.
As far as I can tell, no transfer of Poplar Point has taken place even though the bill authorizing it was signed last year. One Examiner story says they're still negotiating (but with which Fed agency it's unstated); another Examiner story says the Park Service still has to weigh in. Who the hell knows?
And never, EVER USPS crotchfruit. UPS offers a great deal on three-day-direct and they give you a tracking number that actually works. I can't tell you how embarrassing it is when your crotchfruit arrives at its eBay destination all busted up and stained, primarily because my lawyer won't let me.
Guest 81:
I appreciate your post.
But the man called me a liar and a racist, which I don't take kindly to. Especially since my family's economic condition (the very one Hillrat is questioning my honesty about) was in part because my father lost any chance of preaching or working in mainstream Christian religion in the 60s because of his adamant support for equality for black people.
Of course, my Pop being a boneheaded individualist at any cost probably had something to do with it as well.
Sadly, Hillrat's character dispersions have derailed the real discussion at hand.
But your point that money and class (or education) do not necessarily go hand in hand is quite valid.
As for the term 'trailer trash', I'd venture to say I'm a bit more familiar with it's use than probably nearly anyone else posting here. I recall quite vividly being called trailer trash by schoolmates and neighbors pretty frequently, sometimes jokingly, sometimes seriously. And we definitely knew where we fit in the social and economic strata, no matter how educated my parents were.
But if that's his hangup, then fine. Let's extend this beyond me, which is painful for me, but theoretically possible, at least briefly.
Suffice it to say that countless people in the economic situation I described as mine have done exactly what I did - they worked their butts off and made something of themselves, often with far fewer opportunities than most DC area residents have. And without the sense of entitlement that some DC area residents have.
Monkey:
If you line the packaging with insulation or plastic the various spilt crotchfruit juices are bareley noticeable from the outside.
The same works for romantic partners you're done with. Of course, the packaging has to be larger, and it's more expensive. Something to think about when you're planning a late night romantic escapade....
I wouldn't know where to begin with the fiasco surrounding DC's negotiations surrounding a new DC United stadium at Poplar Point!
First, DC has been courting DC United for 2 years to build a stadium at Poplar Point.
There are numerous conditions that had to be completed by the City before the transfer of land could be completed. DC knew about those conditions for quite a while now!
The AWC, which was initially charged with redevelopment efforts at Poplar Point, jumped the gun numerous times when it should have been clear to them and the City that the site and development on the site was not ready to be moved forward.
How do you court a group to a site that you don't own, and that you want to see redeveloped when you do own it, but you don't plan to resolve the issues needing to be resolved before redevelopment can move forward?
DC has to relocate the Park Service headquarters building off the site with the heliport to another suitable location in the City. There are other issues also.
I'm ticked because DC spent two years courting DC United to this site when the site is no where near being ready to be redeveloped. WHY? And, then infrastructure for 110-acres of land needs to be planned BEFORE the site can be redeveloped.
So, what does DC do? Now, they issue a press release stating their intent to issue a RFP for Poplar Point next month. Oh, so we are going to bring in another developer into this mess of uncertainty and complexity? Nevermind that DC probably won't even gain control of the site probably until next year if not years from now at the pace that they are on. WHY?
After it was approved by the House of Reps, last year, they could have made some great progress meeting and planning for some of those requirements that are now a roadblock to the development they are so enthusiatically seeking! Plus, I believe the President signed the transfer authorization in February of this year. Still, they already knew what the requirements were beforehand.
Lastly, the city isn't even ready to commit, financially, to the necessary infrastructure improvements needed on the 110-acre site. It may cost $200 million just to put in the roads, sewers, parks, water, and electricity. And, that is before a developer would be able to develop it with habitable buildings.
So, now we wait! And, the city spent two years courting DC United to a site that the city was not prepared to deliver on. They want to pay for their own stadium now and get it built now, not 15 years from now!
Sad.
"They want to pay for their own stadium now and get it built now, not 15 years from now!"
In 15 years, building a stadium at Poplar Point will be about as feasible as building one in Rock Creek today.
Hillman,
You've now called me a coward and a pussy but insist that you want to have "substantive" discussion, somewhat incongruous IMHO.
Nevertheless, I will one last time say that if I thought you were lying I would have said so; I think it's pretty clear that if I want to say something I'll just say it. What I do think is that for you to label yourself "trailer trash" gives a person a somewhat skewed picture of your background. I don't use the term "trailer trash", I find it a demeaning and degrading shorthand for a very ugly thought; I don't think it applies to you. If that means you think I'm calling you a "liar", there's not much I can do about that; we just have a difference of opinion.
I throw the same bullshit flag on my Father when he righteously wraps himself in the cloak of having gone to a segregated high school; it's the truth, but it doesn't tell the whole story. When the crackers in Miami were still grasping at straws to keep "separate but equal" alive, they turned over a brand spanking new high school (fully loaded with modern chem labs, new books, etc.) to the black students. So while PoppaRat invokes the horrors of segregation when relating stories about his high school years, he actually went to a nicer school than most of his white peers. When PoppaRat says that he went to a segregated high school without qualifying his statement in some way, he's being disingenuous; he's not lying, but he's deliberately not telling the whole story and doing it in a way that colors people's perceptions.
I didn't call you a liar and I didn't call you a racist.
Yeah, I have a double-standard about racism that was born of 300 years of slavery and another 100 years of legalized discrimination and terrorism by whites against blacks. You don't like it, tough shit.