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Morning Roundup: Rain Won't Go Away Edition
Former Editor-in-Chief Ryan Avent writes a weekly column about neighborhood and development issues. He'll be on vacation for the next two weeks; this column will return on August 19th.
It’s been a hard summer for many loved and local businesses, some of which have been a part of the city’s life for decades. This week, long lines trailed down New York Avenue as customers waited to get a last meal at A.V. Ristorante. In June, downtown diners mourned as the storied Reeves Bakery closed, after failing to negotiate workable lease terms. Before that, Washingtonians seethed at the news that skyrocketing tax assessments would force the Warehouse Theater to close the doors of its music venue and cafe and start looking for a new location. And ten days ago, the Washington Post reported that a handful of other businesses, from Brookland’s Colonel Brooks’ Tavern to Georgetown’s Blues Alley, are under serious pressure from rising property tax bills.
The proximate cause of the heat on businesses is a scorching hot office market in the Washington area and especially inside the District. Strikingly low office vacancy rates have led to a boom in office construction. Even with millions of new square feet in office space expected to come online over the next two years, it’s expected that vacancy rates will tick up only minimally and temporarily, and to levels most other center cities would die for. The hot market radiates outward. Space everywhere in the city has grown more valuable, and commercial space, which could conceivably be turned into lucrative offices, has risen the most and the fastest.
It’s important to realize that rising assessments and property tax bills do play an important role in shaping land use patterns. Such increases force landowners to develop their properties more quickly and more densely. That means that less District land is sitting un- or underused, and it means that lots which are developed are done so in ways that boost transit use and the city’s revenue base, contributing to a more robust city budget. When values and tax bills are rising, surface parking lots and vacant buildings rapidly disappear, and that’s undeniably a good thing for the city.
That, however, is not the entire story. It would be wrong to declare that changes in the city are only due to the workings of the market, and that we should be glad to accept the office boom as it has occurred. Growth in the central business district has taken place within the institutional framework the city provides, and as it turns out, that framework has real and unfortunate effects on the kinds of businesses the city gets--and loses.
Photo by dl004d.
Take the central business district. There, strict height limits and the city’s tax policy interact to shape the look and feel of downtown neighborhoods in significant ways. Height limits constrain supply and push up rents, limiting the kinds of businesses that can afford to locate downtown. This problem will only become more acute as construction north and south of Capitol Hill leads to a build out of potential office space in the city. Meanwhile, rising tax assessments force building owners to construct and choose tenants in such a way as to maximize the revenue they receive. The result is an office core built to squeeze as much space as possible out of lots limited in three dimensions, and buildings which contain little ground floor retail. The hulking office blocks pay the bills, but they also deaden street life and the overall aesthetics of the central core.
The outcome is hardly an optimal one for the District. The city and office tenants would be better off with a mix of uses downtown. Residential units in the core would help to reduce congestion, and a better mix of local businesses would enliven office life, increasing the array of shops, restaurants, and entertainment options available to those working in the city. It’s likely that a better mix of retail would increase the value of office space downtown, but while that mix might be good for the city, individual land-owners are forced to consider only their own balance sheets. Each landowner makes building and tenant decisions to individually maximize revenue, and the result is disheartening blandness.
A mix of uses displays what economists call positive externalities. That is, it has benefits for a community that can’t be captured by those providing the mix. Opening a new shop or restaurant downtown might increase the value of surrounding office space without the owners of the office buildings having to contribute a thing. In such a situation, the positive-externality good is underprovided by the market, and economists therefore recommend that it be subsidized. The city should be making it easier and cheaper for varied businesses to operate in office cores. But is it?
In fact, the city does fairly near the opposite. As local urban revitalization consultant Richard Layman has meticulously documented, the city treats all commercial property in the city as if it could be converted into high-end office or retail space. Whatever the size and location of a piece of commercial square footage, it is treated as if it could be turned into the downtown headquarters of a multinational consulting firm or the primary District space for a national chain retailer. This is patently ridiculous. Older buildings, regardless of their size and density, cannot possibly expect to attract the tenants necessary to support tax bills computed in such a way. Smaller and quirkier spaces, in many ways the loveliest parts of commercial districts, are just not configured for use by offices or larger retailers. The city’s tax rules penalize such spaces for being older and odder, and they dictate the replacement of such buildings by new, large offices and retail spaces.
Even if the city’s policies treated different kinds of buildings in different locations differently, its inattention to use would hamstring businesses with smaller margins, pushing all commercial spaces everywhere toward the most profitable types of activity. The question is, do we believe the city is better off with a mix of activities in commercial areas? Do we feel that the city is a better place to live—and perhaps even a more desirable business location—if commercial strips are home not just to bars and drug stores, but also to theaters and galleries, specialty retailers and independent restaurants?
If we do, then it is important that our tax code reflect this. The city should arrive at general classifications for the kinds of uses any given street ought to have, and it should tax those classifications based on what they are able to pay, and not on what a K Street lobbying firm could afford to pay. Do note: this doesn’t prevent market mechanisms from acting; rents across the city can and should vary based on neighborhood demand. But there is a difference in allowing demand to shape uses and in allowing shoddy tax policy to strip every last bit of variety out of an area.
It is a terrible shame that growth in the District has led to the loss of some of the great and distinctive small businesses in the city. It’s still worse to see that anger about such losses has led to bitterness in the city over the economic resurgence. Some residents wonder aloud whether it was worth the growth to sacrifice such key facets of the city’s character. But it’s important to note that the market didn’t make those losses happen; growth didn’t doom these places that we love. Poor public policy doomed those businesses, and unless the city’s government acts to fix the way that businesses are valued and taxed, it will doom others still.
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There's a lot of truth in what you say about high taxes changing the face of business in DC.
But residential investment property is seeing an enormous rise in taxes also, and if we address the problems with commercial and retail tax increases then we need to address residential investment property increases as well. Part of the reason property owners all jumped to create condos out of their apartment buildings in the last couple of years is because many are seeing property taxes triple and quadruple but they are either artificially under rent control or the market doesn't allow them to raise rents much.
It's also worth noting that some businesses in DC simply aren't ready for prime time. Yes, rising taxes are driving some out of business. And we need to address that. But some are going out of business because they just weren't very good businesses, or they offered substandard products that a more demanding populace simply don't want.
AV didn't close because of a crushing tax burden, as you kind of suggest in your lede. There's the little matter of a sweet payday from Douglas Jemal. The owner is quoted in the Post as saying Jemal "made us an offer we couldn't refuse," to the tune of $18 million to $20 million! So it's probably not a great idea to lump in AV with the other places you list. It's a sign of sloppy research and kind of kills your argument right at the beginning.
Amen, Hillman. And regardless, why should public policy be skewed toward the preservation of arbitrary businesses simply because of longevity? If there was really a demand for these places, they would find a new location and pursue further business opportunities there. The central busines district of DC has only so much space, and it's by far in the city's best interests to foster smart revenue growth and development than to handhold a medicore restaurant. So maybe I just answered your implicit question, and it wasn't a failure on the city's part at all, but rather an intentional policy decision. At the end of the day, it's the business owner's responsibility to adapt or be left behind, not the District's public policy office. I can think of at least 20 other neighborhoods where Restaurant AV could go and maintain consistent or expanded business from before. If DC turns its back on the current demand for development, in particular in the business core, it will be lost opportunities for economic expansion and more of the sprawl that Ryan so vehemontly opposes each week.
Ryan
I am surprised by your post -- you seem to have been taken in by Monkey. The bottom line is that the city is changing quickly but at this stage it is absurd to suggest that rising assessments (or the city's height limit) are making DC more bland (right now). The fact is that plenty of indy stores/restaurants are opening or moving into the city -- the thing is that in many cases they are better funded (and by extension usually better run) and locate in established commercial areas like G'town, Dupont, etc. (look at how upper Wisconsin has revived itself in the past 5 years) or they are start-ups but in emerging commercial areas (Barracks Row, H Street, Georgia Ave, 11th Street NW, 14th Street, etc.). I do agree that the city should help existing businesses grow and prosper BUT it is important to note that as long as DC has areas which need improvement and investment (areas like Georgia Ave, Kennedy Street, Upshur Street, H Street, etc.) it may not be wise public policy to artificially restrict property assessments -- though I grant exceptions should be made (the tax shouldn't neccessarily reflect the maximum FAR value at every site).
The second point is that the retail environment in the CBD/Downtown is and will continue to improve because of this prosperity. Now major international investors are buying DC buildings -- because DC is so valuable -- and are making huge upgrades and, in effect, subsidizing better retail by often tearing down outdated bldgs and replacing them with newer, better designed bldgs often w/ much higher retail ceiling heights. Buildings that haven't had retail in years (like the old FDIC bldg at 17th and H or the soon to be redeveloped Riggs bldg across the street) will soon have new high end shops, restaurants. What's more, the height limit is helping to spur a huge building boom in former blighted neighborhoods that are truly mixed-use like Near SE and NoMa. In time the height limit will have to change but right now it is serving the city quite well.
One final point, the Warehouse is worth saving and will likely move to another up and coming part of town -- a very good development in my view. AV and Reeves, on the other hand, had both long outlived their useful life -- Reeves may return but sad to say AV will not be missed by me -- I do hope Jemal saves the sigh, though.
Krisa -- Are you for real? You are really going to be just happy that the "system worked" when the whole city is one starbucks after tacky theme restaurant after big box store? That there is absolutely no invested interest in the city keeping its uniqueness? You think that tourists go to San Francisco or New York or Chicago to go to Ruby Tuesdays and Target? Or that the innovative business culture that is driving the pace of change in design and technology is attracted to these places because they like having easy access to Best Buy? You're completely delusional if you don't think that a city has a vested interest in encouraging local economic and business diversity and supporting its homegrown neighborhoods and small business owners. Small businesses absolutely drive the economy and they set the pace for the diversity and salability of the community. I am glad that you'll be just peachy keen when DC has all the charm of Chantilly. By that point, I hope that I won't live here to bump into you at the grand opening for the Wal-Mart.
DC1974
So glad you are still here... fwiw, people still flock to Manhattan and as of late last week the chains HAVE officially taken over the island. Viva Starbucks!
DC1974:
I'll take a Target over a lot of the crappy retail outlets we currently have. Say I need to buy an ironing board and an alarm clock and a bedspread. What are my choices in DC currently?
And say what you want about chain restaurants. At least they have a minimal training program for their employees. That's a lot more than most DC restaurants have. And it shows.
I too would love to see really great independent shops and such. But we're kidding ourselves if we think all local shops and restaurants are a good thing. So many in DC have surly employees, substandard or mediocre goods, and sky high prices.
Wow, Ryan. I gues you really did drink the Monkey Kool-Aid. I guess I owe you a Coke.
The tax rate apologist crowd doesn't seem to have a problem with old, worn-out, outlived-their-useful-life, shoulda-moved-to-Herndon businesses going belly up because of confiscatory taxes. Bring on the new, self-sustaining small businesses! So long as they don't go after my hip, trendy, overpriced, gogo slopshop. Problem is, at current rates, the only businesses that can afford to be downtown will be the national franchises and chains. Which is fine if that's what you want downtown to look like, just like every other downtown: sterile streetscapes full of chain food and generic franchise shopping. I thought you people moved downtown to get away from the suburbs?
I'd have to agree that A.V. is a poor example, though. They've been in the biz for half a century, weathered riots and crack epidemics and drivebys, and people want to spend $30 on a plate of freerange, cruelty-free charcuterie, not boiled pasta and chicken livers. $20 mil is a nice payoff for having to put up with all that bulls**t. Better example would be Scholls Cafeteria or Waffle Shop or even Rhode's Tavern; places with a sense of history that addressed a bluecollar dining need, places that fastfood killed. The taxes were just the nail in the coffin.
Residential neighborhoods are constantly in flux, their racial and social demographics evolving decade after decade. Why should we expect any different for businesses? Problem is when a signature place like Black Cat or 9:30 Club can't afford to be downtown anymore, and you wake up one day and they've been replaced by House of Blues, Inc. And it IS going to happen, people. And you WILL pay through the ass for the privelege of seeing whatever godawful shite they're peddling. Everybody talks about affordable housing, what about affordable dining? Or affordable entertaining? You can still find it outside the core, but if you want a mix of people spending money, you need to have a mix of options. Unless your primary concern is to just generate maximum tax revenue; in that case, just open nothing but steakhouses and boutique food troughs. Residents have every right to demand that businesses in their neighborhoods cater to their needs and tastes. But don't complain when you have to take a dump and nobody will let you use their crapper because you're not wearing a silk ascot, a top hat, and a goddamned monocle.
And I'm SO glad that one asshole waiter at A.V. is out of a job. We all know who I'm talking about, the one who's always too busy to do anything for you, even though the place is freaking empty. And even then, he fcuks up your order and acts like its a big goddamn hassle to get it straight. I wouldn't piss in his face if his head was on fire. May his calcinating bones rot in hell, in that circle of hell reserved for asshole waiters, right there between unbaptized foetuses and simonists.
Hillman - The Popeyes on 8th Street has the surliest goddamned staff this side of a backalley abortion clinic. Ditto for the McD's on Penn. Being a chain is no guarantee of quality. Try any Five Guys and you'll see how ridiculously wide the quality varies.
[shrieks, throws feces at monitor]
I've lived about 6 blocks from AV R. for 10 years. I can safely say that not many people ever frequented that businesses and that AV R. was run to the ground by the owners and staff.
As for property taxes being high- remember that good governance and citizens who actively monitor their government are the solution (think of all the fiscal improprieties that go on). Not a property inspector or a couple of people who bemoan all the Starbucks' in town and probably haven't been active in government.
In full disclosure, I drink Starbucks all the time- crappy coffee but I love the buzz. Muah hahah.
"The fact is that plenty of indy stores/restaurants are opening or moving into the city -- the thing is that in many cases they are better funded (and by extension usually better run) and locate in established commercial areas like G'town, Dupont, etc. (look at how upper Wisconsin has revived itself in the past 5 years) or they are start-ups but in emerging commercial areas (Barracks Row, H Street, Georgia Ave, 11th Street NW, 14th Street, etc.)."
Yes, I agree. As a matter of fact, a new indie restaurant just opened up in Penn Quarter a few weeks ago. Right in a downtown neighorhood. It is called Proof. It is also "proof" that (well-run) indie retailers in our city can thrive right alongside the national/international retailers. And, indie retailers ARE moving into downtown as well as emerging neighborhoods. Come to think, there are dozens of indie restaurants and other retailers located within a few blocks radius of the Gallery Place complex. I've compiled a list just to put it into written perspective for myself. And, most of them have opened up after year 2002. Prove me wrong.
Independent retail is but one of many reasons that makes the city attractive. There is also an abundance of entertainment, theatre, museums, et cetera.
Last time I checked, DC is an underserved retail market. In fact, it was an underserved retail market 20 years ago. Indie retail alone won't get us to where we need to be. Sorry to disappoint you. And, for the city's economic survival, we can no longer relegate the suburbs as DC's retail backyard as where we go to buy our cheap ironing boards and white tube socks. We need more options in the City.
I'll gladly take a Target and a Best Buy, and I still won't feel like I'm in the suburbs. It's a lot deeper than that!
Monkey:
You have a point about chains in DC not necessarily being better than the indies.
The best example I can think of was the TGIF on Pennsylvania, a block or so from the White House. Stunningly bad service, surly arrogant employees, and food that was stone cold.
But at least the Popeyes on 8th will serve me reasonably priced food.
What really chaps my ass is when I'm paying through the nose and the DC-style service and product is still shitty. And that's what we get in DC indie stores, much more so than in other American cities.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a DC thing - this appallingly bad service and crappy items we're constantly being offered. And it happens in both indie stores and the chains.
Maybe that's changing. I don't know. But the idea that DC would totally be just freaking OMG wonderful if only we had a few more 'oldstyle DC' businesses is fairly unsupportable, given the level of quality in many (but admittedly not all) DC indie businesses.
Small retailers can thrive downtown IF they charge high margins ($9 glasses of wine at Proof) or deal in volume (like the new boutique Mcdonalds in Gallery Place). This is the only way they can meet expenses and is why you'll never have a Wegman's in DC. The parent company would never be able to recoup their costs in property taxes, let alone the millions that would go running out the door with shoplifters. But if you don't charge an arm-and-a-leg or turn tables over constantly, you ain't gonna be thrivin. I'm not making the case to preserve the corner mom-n-pop bodega because for the most part, they suck, unless you want to subsist off moldy bread, soda, cigarettes, Rap Snacks, and Night Train.
Come to think of it, that ain't a half bad idea.
This city needs more office space.
Most of the dcist readership is probably transplants.
Why did you come here?
My guess it wasn't to be near some tapas place or some crappy store.
It was for your job.
Downtown.
In an office building.
Oh, you're so right, Hillman, I get the BEST SERVICE EVAH at Ruby Tuesday's! And all because their staff watched three hours of informative, highly directive TRAINING VIDEOS!
You make me laugh out loud at my computer. Ella's, Belga, Aatish on the Hill, Logan Tavern, or Tonic are better any day of the week than the shit you get at a chain restaurant.
Bad service is a problem throughout DC, and it isn't native to independent stores OR chain stores--it's symptomatic of this entire area.
D.C. is struggling right now to strike a balance between a public policy that fosters economic growth, and one which allows independent businesses to thrive. It's great when a surface parking lot is turned into a revenue-generating office building. It's even better when the ground floor of that building features a mix of national and local retail. It is a bad thing, however, when popular, locally-owned businesses in areas like Shaw and U St. are forced to close due to nonsensical skyrocketing tax assessments.
This isn't an either/or proposition--those of us who support independent retail and are angered by the tax assessment insanity don't wish to see a D.C. devoid of national retailers or revenue garnering office buildings. Likewise, those that support economi growth and development in the city don't want to do so at the expense of worthwhile, locally based establishments. The D.C. government needs to come up with a way to achieve fair and reasonable tax revenue on properties throughout the central core without a policy that is hostile to local businesses. Currently, they're in danger of falling into a situation resembling the latter--and they need to work towards the former.
On a last note, Guest 13, I moved to D.C. several years ago both for the job I obtained AND the many unique aspects of the city. I could have easily landed a job in Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Louisville, Detroit or Atlanta--and yet I elected to move to D.C. D.C. might have a growing economy and job market at the moment, but that alone won't bring people here. If the District sells it's soul to the God of Tax Revenue, the repercussions will be felt for an enormous period of time.
The city should arrive at general classifications for the kinds of uses any given street ought to have, and it should tax those classifications based on what they are able to pay, and not on what a K Street lobbying firm could afford to pay.
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Isn't this the same as redlining? How wouldn't this plan ghettoize neighborhoods in 5-10 years?
I love Rap Snacks!! I'm definitely Bar B Quing with my Honey.
Bad service is a problem throughout DC, and it isn't native to independent stores OR chain stores--it's symptomatic of this entire area.
I attempted to respond to this earlier and my comment was eaten, first one in quite a while.
Where are you guys going that you're always getting such crappy service? Sure I have gotten bad service in DC, but I don't think it's any way reflective of the area. Saturday I went to Fairy Godmother's (toy store by Eastern Market) the guy working checked stock for a specific product, apologized for not having what we wanted, suggested an alternative, and wrapped our package for us all in about ten minutes. Frager's and District Lock & Key are both top notch hardware stores that are locally owned and operated. It's been my experience that the kids that work in the sneaker stores down on H St. are unfailingly polite and helpful models of customer service professionalism. Tunnicliff's food is below par and expensive, but the servers are at least pleasant even if they are a bit slow.
I dunno, maybe I've just been living here long enough that I generally avoid places with lame service.
If there was really a demand for these places, they would find a new location and pursue further business opportunities there.
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Krisa, this isn't true. The Roma restaurant in Cleveland Park was beloved and everyone I knew loved eating there, but the owner retired and moved to Florida. The demand was there, but he didn't want to run the restaurant in absentia and closed for his own reasons, selling massive real estate that was split into three restaurants. That's how I remember the story anyway. Owners are sadly not forced to continue being restaurateurs if they don't want to be.
At least they have a minimal training program for their employees. That's a lot more than most DC restaurants have. And it shows.
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Bull. I ate at 5 restaurants last month and had only one bum experience. Have you ever been to 1789?
In fact, it was an underserved retail market 20 years ago.
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umm, it's been underserved since April 1968.
Hillrat-
That was my post you responded to. I am referring more to restaurants regarding the poor service epidemic. There are a few staples in our neighborhood we return to quite frequently because the service *is* above par (Lalibela on P St., Stoney's (same owners as Tunnicliff's), Bar Pilar) but it seems more often than not our foray out to a D.C. dining establishment is met with service that ranges from mediocre to exceptionally poor. Frequently, the service is merely slow...sometimes it is surly...sometimes indifferent. If I could narrow it down to only a couple of establishments I would merely avoid them, but I'm not exagerrating when I say that the descriptor of below-average service could be applied to a majority of the establishments we have dined in.
Hillrat -
Where this monkey got crap service:
A.V.: Mentioned above. Loved the pizza, hated the service. The place was like a gorgeous, bombshell blond and you get her back to your place and find she has a HUGE penis and she's intent on beating you unconscious with it. Then you wake up in a bathtub full of ice and your kidney's missing.
Clyde's: Take your pick. Just about any one, particularly the Gallery Place one. The coin of their realm is wait half an hour for a table, wait another 45 mintues for your food, eat what we gave you even though we screwed up your order, then get the hell out. To top it off, your "sliders" have a colonic half-life of 20 minutes before you go running to the handicapped stall so you can hold on to the rails while they "slide" out of you, and by "slide" I mean "initiate warp core jettison."
Meyhane: Couldn't get past the door. "We no open" they yelled, half an hour after they were supposed to be open. This happened twice. Then they folded. Good riddance.
Afterwords: Waiter was on his cellphone most of the time. When he wasn't, he was casually paring his fingernails and ignoring us.
Logan Tavern: Amazingly bitchy service. No utensils, despite asking for them twice; no water refills, despite asking for them twice. And then THEY get huffy when they screw up my burger.
Ugly Mug: You'd figure that consistently getting crowds for lunch that cause half-hour waits for food would indicate that you need to hire more waitstaff instead of forcing the barkeep to wait ALL the tables. Dumb.
I wish I could play the race card and just say they hated monkeys, but I had on a suit and a honkey mask.
As for regular retail, Home Depot is well-known for their disappearing staff. At the Rhode Island Avenue store, not only do they disappear but they disappear with the store's merchandise. I'll stick with Fragers, as long as they're still in business, that is.
I'm not exagerrating when I say that the descriptor of below-average service could be applied to a majority of the establishments we have dined in.
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Since I'm out and about plenty and don't have similar experiences, do you think it might be you? Have you eaten in NYC or Boston or LA and had it different or are you trying to compare us with the Hometown Cafe in Ruralville, GA where everyone remembers your grandmother?
What worries me is the taxes are outracing the development in places like H St. The place, except a handful of bars, is still a ghost town at night. Yet the property taxes for businesses there far surpass the reality of the place.
So what independent business is going to want to move there into small retail? Joe Engler has been griping about the taxes on Frozen Tropics. What if he packs his H St bags and goes home?
Guest 15/22 - This isn't the first time I've heard this complaint, so maybe it's my experience that's atypical but I don't think I've ever had a "surly" waiter in DC. In fact, the only time I can ever really recall getting absolutely terrible service at a restaurant was the one time I went to the now defunct Phish Tea Cafe; it was comically bad, but even then the service improved over the course of the meal.
With a two year old in the house, the wife and I don't go out nearly as often as we used to and that may contribute to our relative lack of bad experiences. I guess because we go out to eat so infrequently, we do tend to go to "better" places with better trained staffs. You're going to get better service at Ceiba or Sonoma than you are at Tunni's or Ellis Island.
The Council is slitting their own throat with these tax increases. Small-to-medium size buisnesses generate most of the tax revenues in DC, not the K Street law firms. They're the ones with the lawyers who can find the loopholes to get them out of paying their fare share. And you all realize that those tax increases end up raising the cost of the products and services DC residents pay for, right? They don't just disappear.
This is the same mistake they made when the population declined with the white flight of the 50s and 60s followed by the black flight of the 70s: raise taxes higher on a shrinking population to pay for their bloated bureaucracy. Now, the population is increasing, so they think they can get away with jacking the taxes up exponentially because the new population is more affluent. Except they're only providing small businesses one more reason to move out of DC.
Word to your mother. Yung Joc Sweet & Hot Cheese Curls make your booty hurt.
Monkey - Hilarious as always, the one time I went Meyhane service was a bit slow but extremely personable and nice. I never made it to AV, having lived in Jersey for so many years I know it could have never lived up to the hype; besides everyone knows that Michael makes the best chicken parm in Metro DC. As for Clyde's, you got what you deserved for patronizing the place. I've never been to a Clyde's and have no desire to darken their doorstep. I guess I've been lucky at Afterwords and gotten good waiters.
While we're on the topic of bad service though, last weekend the wife and I tried to go to Tomate for dessert after eating elsewhere and were told we could not be seated just for dessert. It was more straight up bizarre than anything else IMHO, but I guess that's some of what folks are talking about around here.
"Small-to-medium size buisnesses generate most of the tax revenues in DC, not the K Street law firms. "
- I understood that most law firms pass through corporate income to their partners, most of whom do not live in DC, and so are not taxed at all because they show no "profit".
Yes?
Monkey--you get bad service because the wait staff see you and say, oh hell, it's that Monkey asshole. don't give him any utensils and maybe he'll leave. ;)
I always get the evil host at Cafe Asia, but I just give it back to him in equal measure, and it's fine. I think at this point he expects the customers to seethe back at him. Mind you, I'd only do this at Cafe Asia because I only order sushi there, and I can see them making it so I know nobody spit in my food. I did tell the host once to get another job if food service was so distasteful to him. I believe I mentioned an opening at Metro in the pigeon-poisioning department. Okay, I didn't, but I may next time.
Thanks. And here I was thinking it was antisemitism. When will waiters learn the difference between a yamulke and a propeller beanie?
"Since I'm out and about plenty and don't have similar experiences, do you think it might be you? Have you eaten in NYC or Boston or LA and had it different or are you trying to compare us with the Hometown Cafe in Ruralville, GA where everyone remembers your grandmother?"
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I don't need to defend my "eating out" credentials to you, thank you very much. I've spent my entire life living in and travelling through major cities here and abroad--I know what good service is, and I know what poor service is. And--hard as this may be for your mind to comprehend--more often than not my experience in D.C. restaurants has tended towards the latter.
As to what I expect at a restaurant: attentive service, non-surliness, and a general effort to ensure that my experience is a pleasant one all spring to mind. Having to ask repeatedly for things like water, napkins and utensils; waiting 30-40 minutes after we have finished eating for our check to arrive; having our entrees arrive under/overcooked, with the wrong food, or over an hour after we have ordered does not--in my mind--meet those minimum qualifications.
Now, perhaps my wife and I simply have higher standards than you. Perhaps you've been lucky. Perhaps we are cursed. But whatever it is, it's been our experience--like it or not. Feel free to expound on the litany of wonderful culinary experiences you have had in our fair city, but I'm simply telling you what our experience frequently has been--not asking for your agreement.
"Guest 15/22 - This isn't the first time I've heard this complaint, so maybe it's my experience that's atypical but I don't think I've ever had a "surly" waiter in DC."
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We recently dined at Bistrot D'OC and had a server who looked absolutely pained to be serving us--and our neighbors as well, apparently, as we both commented to each other during the meal about her demeanor. We simply couldn't understand it--although we had been seated upstairs, and it appeared as if she had some tables downstairs to deal with as well. Maybe the frequent trompsing up and down the stairs was getting to her. It was so bad that after the meal we complained to the maitre d' about it--something I almost never do. It's a shame, too, because the food was wonderful.
Everett:
I never said all local restaurants are bad. But for every five you can name that are outstanding I can name five that are mediocre and another five that suck. And usually it sucks because of the service
Like Hawk and Dove. Ugly Mug. Union Pub. Logan Tavern. Starfish. Banduccis. Lounge 201. And that's just my own neighborhood (except Logan Tavern).
And I'm not talking about where the drink refills don't come promptly. I'm talking about situations where you have to fight to get seated, your server clearly couldn't care less if you are there or not, things come out of the kitchen totally screwed and no one thinks this is odd, etc.
But more often than not it's simply indifferent service. Not so bad that you feel like you can complain, but totally indiffferent.
If I had to put a percentage on it, I'd say that probably 2/3 of the time in DC the service is indifferent to crappy.
And the same customer service ethic is found in many local non-food retail outlets.
Guest 24:
I compare my DC eating experiences mostly to NYC and San Francisco and Philadelphia.
Compared to any of these, DC suffers noticeably.
Especially in the lower-priced more casual restaurants.
You can get good service in DC. But usually it's only in very pricey restaurants. In NY and SF and Philly, you can get good service in your corner deli or pub. That you rarely get in DC.
This talk of "surly" service in DC is interesting. I have not had much "surly" service myself, but I was wondering if this "surly" service could be, in part, provoked on the consumer end. It is a consideration. I do know that some waiters/waitresses can be unhappy and ill-tempered on the job, but I've been successful at defusing the few situations of "surly" service by projecting a happy and upbeat attitude. In most cases, the waiter or waitress lightened-up and the service improved on the spot.
Otavio raises an interesting point, one of the reasons I think I rarely (if ever) get a "surly" waiter is that I make a point of being the kind of customer that people want to wait on. It's been my experience that a sincere smile and a few kind words at the beginning of service go a long way towards making a meal go smoothly. I've also found that treating a server like a valued professional by asking for recommendations and opinions thaws the ice a bit too.
Should I have to "make nice" with a server in order to get good service? No, but it's one of those things that doesn't cost anything and generally seems like a decent thing to do. Especially for someone who as often as not is probably getting shit on by obnoxious customers, incompetent co-workers, and a power mad manager who has no idea how to motivate their staff.
wonderful, hillrat. It only takes a minute or two to set the tone for type of service you expect. I do it all the time.
Otavio and Hillrat:
I almost always make a point of being as friendly and helpful as I can be when I go out to eat or go to a retail place. Sometimes it seems to help. More often, though, it doesn't, especially in the places with lingering suck-ass service.
On the flip side, I've seen some really shockingly arrogant behavior on the part of restaurant patrons in DC. Most often it's from the young'uns, new in town and apparently eager to show just how stupid and condescending they can be.
Could be we just have different expectations. I don't expect people to kiss my ass or fawn over me. I just want basic acknowlegement that I'm there and basic service. But it could be our ideas of basic service are different. Maybe I wouldn't think so poorly of DC service if I hadn't seen how it's done right in other US cities.
Example: It seems that in DC it's often up to the customer to say "Thank you" after getting rung up at the local corner grocery or whatnot, especially if you're not a regular. It's not until you make that extra effort, after receiving your change, that many DC cashiers will acknowledge your presence at all, beyond the obligatory statement of how much you owe (and it seems that even that is often too much effort on their part). If you don't say "Thank You" at the end of the transaction then you'll just get your change back with silence. Even after you've tried to be friendly and say "Hello" when you first make it to the register.
It's like they've got your money, they are done with you.
This happens so often in DC that I don't even think it odd until I go to another city and find that things are reversed - the cashier acknowledges you when you come up to the register, and they are the ones that thank you, rather than the other way around.
But this may be a Virginia thing as well. I found the same thing in Richmond and Norfolk.
Is it a big deal? No, not really. But it's sortof indicative of how it works in DC.
Hillman, maybe some people here in DC just don't like the way you look or your voice or something like that. I don't know what to say.
That's very possible. But I hear the same types of complaints from a lot of people I know. Especially those that have lived in or even visited other American cities.
"one of the reasons I think I rarely (if ever) get a "surly" waiter is that I make a point of being the kind of customer that people want to wait on. It's been my experience that a sincere smile and a few kind words at the beginning of service go a long way towards making a meal go smoothly. I've also found that treating a server like a valued professional"
Hear hear. I spent ten years eating out 3 meals a day in DC and it's been a truism that, when waitestaff is treated with respect and consideration, they return the favor. Sure, there's a few exceptions, but they are few and far between.
#42 again-
And, by the way, anecdotal complaints of spotty service really don't have much to do with best practices in local economic planning, do they?
Yeah, I love how this thread went from high taxes squeezing out small businesses to the same five people bitching about how their restaurant servers don't spread rose petals in front of them as they walk to their tables. Geez, get a grip, folks. Some of come off as giant fucking assholes.
Mean to say, some of YOU come off as giant fucking assholes. No wonder you get bad service. I'm sure you treat your servers with the utmost respect and dignity.
Guest 44 and 45:
If wanting competent service makes me an asshole, then I'm an asshole.
And I'd have a lot more respect for your ability to call others assholes if you had enough balls to actually sign your name to posts.
And, to repeat, a lot of us make it a point to be professional and treat those in the service industries with respect (I myself spent years in various service industries, so I know how it goes), so your tired lament of how we only get bad service if we somehow start it doesn't really address the reality of DC's crappy service standards.
And the problems are a lot my systemic than can possibly be a result of me personally being an asshole.
It goes far beyond just wait staff. It's stores whose floors are so filthy that your shoes stick to the floor. It's owners that don't train their staff. It's owners that give you substandard crap at inflated prices. It's owners that don't even bother to post their hours of operation, or if they do they simply close when they feel like it, regardless of posted hours.
The list goes on and on.
In short, there are a lot of crappy businesses in DC. Yes, higher taxes will run some businesses out. But crappy business practices will as well.
Maybe the Council should make small business tax relief based on the amount of human dignity training they give their staff.
And really, is there that much difference between a smug asshole on a cellphone who's looking for excuses to cut back on his 10% tip and a monkey throwing feces?
Hillman: It's not that you're an a-hole, it's that you have a huge Persecution Complex. For some reason, everything is personal and offensive to you. And it's not about how you came about, it's that YOU HAVE IT.
"Yeah, I love how this thread went from high taxes squeezing out small businesses to the same five people bitching about how their restaurant servers don't spread rose petals in front of them"
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And the same five people telling me that they do.
What's your point?
"And, to repeat, a lot of us make it a point to be professional and treat those in the service industries with respect (I myself spent years in various service industries, so I know how it goes), so your tired lament of how we only get bad service if we somehow start it doesn't really address the reality of DC's crappy service standards."
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Hear, hear. Couldn't agree more. My wife and I nearly *always* engage in small talk with the host/hostess and the server, and generally try to be as pleasant as possible. I spent seven years in the service industry, I know what it's like to be blamed and yelled at for things frequently out of your control.
At the same time, I always tried to make an effort to be attentive to the customer--not talking with my friends or yakking on a cell phone when I'm assisting people, not ignoring customers for 25-30 minutes at a time, not being surly or dismissive of customer needs or complaints, etc. I'm not looking for rose petals--hell, getting my drinks within 15 minutes of sitting down, getting my order at least mostly right, and checking in once or twice during the meal are usually enough to placate me.
And I'd have a lot more respect for your ability to call others assholes if you had enough balls to actually sign your name to posts.
That's the most sensible thing you've said in weeks. ;)
-HR
Guest 49:
Who knows. Maybe I do have a persecution complex. But even if so it doesn't lessen the legitimacy of the points I make.
If I was the only one that felt this way then maybe you'd have a point. But I routinely hear the same thing from people that are not from DC - that the service or retail industries and even most of the trade industries in DC suck big time, far worse than in most cities.
So does that mean all these people have 'persecution complexes'?
A friend of mine, a recent transplant from Atlanta, put it quite nicely. He said DC was a very interesting place, but that everything here is a struggle. It's a struggle to find a neighborhood pub that doesn't suck, it's a struggle to find a store that's reasonably clean, it's a struggle to get most anything from the DC government, it's a struggle to feel safe in far more than half the city, it's a struggle to constantly deal with the racial and class-based BS that is routinely inflicted on people in DC, etc., etc., etc.
The nature of blogs is almost by definition negative. No one would read a blog where we all sat around and gushed only about how swell our little town is.
It's just that as I get older I'm less hesitant to be honest when things suck, even if it's not what people want to hear.
But if it makes you feel better, how about if I list a few places where I've had great service?
Old Ebbitt Grill (yes, I know, not hip enough for most of you hipsters, but it's a professionally run place and it shows).
La Loma (on the Hill)
Banana Cafe
Safeway (on Kentucky..... the checkout ladies are fantastic, which sortof makes up for the meat counter guys who would obviously just like you to go away)
Bagels and Baguettes
The Diner (although it's often hit or miss)
Perrys
Mimis
Popeyes on 8th St NE
Fragers
The DMV (yes, unbelievably, I've had several very friendly DMV ladies in the last couple of years)
Most of the meter maids in my area
Hill Rat:
Thank you.
I asked for Todd's thoughts on this article in the Washingtonian "Kliman Online" chat today, and here was his reply:
"AV had gotten to be terrible. Yes, it had charm, but it wasn't putting out good food, or even decent food, anymore. And the owners made out pretty well, I'd say: around $20 million for that spot.
I miss the idea of it, but not the reality of it. Reeves, I'll miss.
The thing is, where you do find these places is in the outlying areas, where things are more affordable. Invariably, they're ethnic spots.
I wonder sometimes if the absence of these "intimate mom-and-pops," as you call them, has to do with the transient nature of the population here. People who drift in and out of town tend not to pay much attention to the nooks and crannies.
Among the moneyed, well-traveled foodies who love to dish about the DC food scene, I seldom hear much talk about these kinds of places; they're much more concerned with how the city stacks up against New York.
We have a number of places that, in other cities, would be considered civic treasures -- the kind of place that locals defend to the death. Here, they're hardly embraced.
Do you think Pat's and Geno's are really that great? Are the legendary places of New Orleans -- Brennan's and Commander's Palace -- really that special?
But the locals clutch them to their hearts.
They may be guilty of overloving their longtime restaurants, but we're surely guilty of underloving ours."
They may be guilty of overloving their longtime restaurants, but we're surely guilty of underloving ours.
Nice response from Kliman, but I don't buy it. Sure the snarky hipsters here on DCist or the UNBEARABLE TOOLS at donrockwell.com love to talk about how Ben's Chili Bowl isn't that great, but talk to your average person on the street and I'll bet you get a very different reaction. "The moneyed, well-traveled foodies" of DC don't necessarily know all the best spots for eating around here and I don't know that they appreciate them when they do. People who call string beans "haricot vert" probably don't know that the white bread on a Horace & Dickie's fish sandwich is really just there to soak up the excess hot sauce.
For the record: Pat's and Geno's are OK at best; if you're in Philly, Jim's is the place for a cheesesteak. But if you want one of the best sandwiches on Earth, you will take your ass to Tony Luke's in South Philly for a Pork Italian w/sharp provolone.
Reeves - I loved their pies, cakes, and cookies. Their cheesecake was astonishingly good. That place will be missed.
Their lunch / buffet - not bad, in a throwback sortof way. And their service wasn't bad, either.
And the A.V. nostalgiaists probably never even bothered to try Hodge's Sandwich Shop RIGHT ACROSS THE FCUKING STREET. Joint's been in DC since 1895 and they do some damn good roast beef and roast turkey sandwiches. Baked ham on Fridays.
And I believe that Ben's is the only business that got some kinda exemption from the big tax hike. Hardly sounds like underloving to me.
DC's history is littered with beloved yet mediocre restaurants: Harvey's, Duke Ziebart's, Lion d'Or. It's a shame we don't have places that do good food AND last forever, like Lombardi's in NYC or Tadich's Grill in San Francisco. There are restaurants in London and Paris that have been around for HUNDREDS of years. Do those towns have some kinda restaurant preservation ethic that DC lacks?
Monkey:
And it's so close to the Eagle...... if they ever run short of condiments...
Maybe one reason good restaurants in DC don't last is because many don't buy the space they are in, so they have no control over rising rents. Golden rule of thumb in starting a new business - always buy the space if you can. True, a lot of times it's prohibitively expensive, but often the good hole-in-the-wall restaurants we lament not having could be in a less expensive area where initial purchase cost would be less. Of course, less expensive often means high crime in DC, so that's a factor.
...Lion d'Or...
Uh, in it's day and for its time, Lion d'Or was da bomb. It's all relative.