This is disgraceful and ridiculous.

I'm sure that some LNS boys were similarly aggrevated with Saint Ex's "no popped collars" policy.

Do they allow members of Congress in solo, or do they have to be with interns?

Shrug. It's reasonable, but it's also reasonable for members of the military to avoid that bar in the future.

I for one don't plan on going there any time soon.

Gay bars and their customers were a particular favorite.

I guess that makes it all the more ironic that many of their patrons are closeted Marines. You'll never go to a Marine Corps base anywhere on the planet that there isn't a gay bar within a half mile of the front gate.

They should have kept gone next door. Tune Inn is a much better dive bar anywar, and I can't imagine them turning away anybody!

I'll back up sharonc. Phase One and Bachelor's Mill on 8th Street used to get LOTS of fagbashing jarheads back in the '80s. Some of that attitude would spill over to Mr. Henry's and bars closer to the Hill. But I haven't heard anything of the kind happening recently.

You know who I blame? Lee Harvey Oswald. All it takes is one a**hole to give loner Marines a bad name.

Tunnicliff's is better anyway.

Mixed opinions on this one. Hawk and Dove sucks ass generally. Their food is almost inedible and they seem to clean the joint once a month whether they need it or not. But the beer is sometimes cheap, by DC standards.

But I've seen Marines in Hill joints getting out of control. Used to happen in Zacks a lot, especially when they found out that Renee, who worked behind the bar, wasn't born female.

And I do remember when Marines threw a smoke bomb into Remingtons back in the late 90s. It was quite common back then for Marines to harass gay bar patrons and just random people they thought were gay.

What sucks of course is that this wasn't all Marines. But, let's be honest. With their haircuts and such they really do all start to blend together.

And there really are a lot of Marines that are decent people. Probably the considerable majority are fine, but generally and when they go out to have a good time at night.

What really needs to happen is for the Marine Corps to police their own. I guarantee you that crap would stop with a few well-placed admonitions from their superior officers.

But that may or may not happen. I'll never forget going to a neighborhood meeting back in the late 90s when several high-ranking Marine officials, representing the Marine Corps, told us point blank that they considered the neighborhood a ghetto and that we were damn lucky to have them in our neighborhood.

Whilst I post.... it'd be really helpful if the Marine Corps would educate their newbie Marines on the facts of life in urban areas. I constantly see young Marines giving our resident street thugs $20 or more when asked for change. These are the same folks hanging out and breaking into cars and houses at night. A lot of that crap would stop if Marines were instructed that they aren't helping anyone by giving street people $20 bills when asked.

Marines were causing trouble at the Hawk & Dove just a few weeks ago. Hey, they stand for bigotry and exclusion and now they complain about it? Not welcome in my city.

"or if you don't regularly shop at J-crew"

I hate to say it, but Hmm...discrimination much? Let's all judge each other based on where we shop. Doesn't that sound fun?!? Then, when we are done, we can all stand beside each others lockers and laugh at whoever doesn't fit in.

Looks like this bar made a business decision. I think it is a narrow minded decision, so I will no longer go there. How did this became a rant on where people shop?

I should clarify that the anti-gay stuff still happens, mostly out front of Remingtons. And it's nearly always Marines that are doing it. Usually just verbal taunts, as it's actually sortof embarrassing for a Marine to actually get in an altercation and have his ass kicked by a gay guy or, worse, an actual drag queen.

It's probably just a few Marines doing this. But, again, it's lack of leadership from the top in the Marine Corps. If it was made clear that even the slightest bit of this crap would result in severe punishment this stuff would stop.

And I should clarify to say I have seen Marines giving lots of money to panhandlers, but my earlier comment that I "constantly" saw actual $20 bills was overly broad and written too quickly. That much was fairly rare, but common enough that us residents noticed it.

HM - I'm surprised to hear that USMC officers would be so impolitic in such a public setting.

If you're a bar owner or worker that's having trouble with stupid Marines, the threat of a call to the Staff Duty NCO usually works wonders.

I've only been in DC since 2001 and I've heard more than one story about marines getting unruly near barracks row, including one where a friend got a knife pulled on him by a marine. So if the bar wants to ban marines, and if that seems to be solving the problem, they can go for it. In the same way, just as people have said above, they can choose another bar to drink at. However, I'd like to point out that this would be an entirely different thread if this were done with racial profiling... not encouraging the argument, just mentioning it.

I went to a womens college near an (at that time) all-male military college, and I found that you had to be very aware, and very vigilant when you were near the guys from that school....they were all hands, etc., and usually with NO provocation.
Judging from my own experience, that bar's rule doesn't surprise me...It certainly doesn't mean that I think it's right, but it does remind me of my college days, and I really did tend to stay sober when those boys were around. (I know it's an over-generalization, and I do know some men who went there who were and are perfect gentlemen.)

this would be an entirely different thread if this were done with racial profiling.

What's your point? It would be an entirely different thread b/c it would be an entirely different scenario.

These boys are over there in eyerack fightin' for our country. Let 'em have a few beers! God bless America!

If this were a ban on members of the NAACP or Black Panther Party or immigrants without green cards, would there be outrage by everyone on this site??

I see the wingers have been notified.

I stopped going to H&D when my last Jumbo Hawkburger exploded in my pants. I'd be more worried about getting typhoid from the glassware than getting bashed by jarheads.

And, yes, it is their right to be thickheaded and to lose business.

In response to Hillman, I think the Barracks leadership has tried to impose at least some discipline. I know a couple of guys who've been stationed there for a few years, and one of them told me that Remington's, for example, is one of the bars they're not supposed to go into -- not for any 'don't ask, don't tell' reasons, but b/c of the fighting legacy. How seriously anyone treats that rule, I don't know.

RyanK, it is because the groups that you mentioned are protected as a minority status in most places,and choice of occupation (no pun intended) is really and truly a choice. Actually because the Hawk and Dove is privately owned, they can let whomever the hell they want in.

Hell, it's not just the combat veterans who are mentally unstable. All Marines are a little bit cracked as a result of the bizarre training they are subjected to.

So then, I guess we found out who shops at J-crew. Wow. You totally missed the point though, but thanks for trying.

I don't see anything wrong with this policy. It seems like a sensible response to a legitimate problem.

This is a population of young men who have a preference for aggression (as exhibited by their choice of occupation). A bar doesn't have to let any of them in if they don't want to, and they've come up with a sophisticated rule to get good behavior out of Marine patrons: come in if you have a date or are in uniform.

All the folks who have foresworn going to H&D didn't go there anyway. So go back to minding your business, the bar owners will go back to minding theirs, and when the Marines have a good enough track record in the neighborhood, the policy will be forgotten.

This is no different than auto insurance companies charging higher premiums for young males under the age of 25; age/gender discrimination. They justify using statistics. Honestly, there are no shortage of bars in that area, go elsewhere and just bite the bullet.

If I owned a bar I wouldn't let in any African American Males. I am not a racist, just a realist. Look at the data, African American males are fare more likely than their white counterparts to be involved in violent crimes and, frankly, I just wouldn't want that kind of violent element in my bar.

Sounds insane doesn't it. I guess not to the owners of the Hawk and Dove, which has just lost my business.

This is no different then the groups of Marines who go out in AM, GTown, Alexandria, Arlington, Silver Spring, etc.

I have a friend who spent several years in the Marines through his early and mid-twenties. He was stationed for a time at Quantico. He told me stories of how they would go for weeks without being allowed to leave the base, and therefore weeks without seeing a lady (outside of uniform and/or ones that were unobtainable). When they would get a weekend of leave they would pile in cars and head into DC. He had no problem telling of the problems they would cause. It's in their blood, it's part of their training to be "bad ass SOBs".

I've been on the receiving end of their tirades because they wanted the girls that I was with in AM. I've sat at the bar in GTown and had them nudge me at the bar so that I could watch how cool they were when it came to hitting on women. Their begging and pleading was pitiful. I was embarrassed for the Marines who were partaking.

I hate to be stereotypical but this is a case of a few bad apples ruining the bunch. Unfortunately it is a bad apple that rears its head too often.

I am a former Marine officer living in DC after serving in Iraq. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by some of the comments, but I have to say that I find it a bit depressing.

I went to college at Georgetown in the 90's and I would have been severely punished by the Marines for the same antics I did when I was a 19-20 year old civilian.

The majority of Marines who serve at 8th and I are barely out of their teens. The fact is that their behavior is under greater scrunity than most 18-22 year olds. They are held accountable for their actions.

I made the unfortunate mistake of going to Adams Morgan several weeks ago and none of those I saw in fights were Marines. I did see bar management remove problem individuals when they observed unruly behavior.

I am not going to give you a song and dance about how Marines are fighting to protect your freedom. This blog's readers who have college educations have more in common with the members of the Iraqi elite who send their children to good schools in the US and Britain than they do with the majority of Marines.

It is a testament to how broken our social contract is that only a small segment of our population fights our wars. It is a disgrace that we are unable to go into the same businesses. Discrimination based on military occupation is shameful.

I'm a pacifist and a fag, so I guess some marines might hate me. But I think this is bullshit. And, as someone else kindly noted, public accomodations are prohibited from discriminating against people because of their source of income. That's fairly unusual language in an anti-discrimination statute, and was probably put in place to prohibit discrimination against people receiving public assistance. But it certainly seems broad enough to extend to discrimination based on someone's job.

(And for all you folks who like to say that if you owned a bar you would exclude some group or other -- if you own a bar, you own a public accomodation and are subject to anti-discrimination laws.)

"So then, I guess we found out who shops at J-crew. Wow. You totally missed the point though, but thanks for trying." Really? "Thanks for trying."

No, I get it. You choose not to go into a bar for several reasons, and one of them is b/c of the clothes people are wearing. Somehow, what people wear makes you think they are racist and sexist. Yes, I shop and that store, but it has nothing to do with my politics, my attitudes toward race, or my views on women. I love that you can know all of these things by looking at the dress I am wearing.

I think that most of us can agree that this policy is wrong, though I'm not sure how I feel about lumping all forms of discrimination together. The DC statute that someone quoted also mentions "personal appearance". A lot of stores have the "No shoes, no shirt, no service" signs or the right to refuse service signs. In some instances, for example a bar that bans flip flops, some sort of public safety argument could be made. Still, I would argue that a lot of these places just have a standard for how they want people to look in their establishment, and think flip flops inappropriate. I really don't see this as the same thing as discriminating on the basis of race, sex, or some other immutable physical characteristic. Discrimination of this sort was based on the systematic subjugation of these groups. It wasn't just a matter of a bar denying joe schmoe his "right" to drink and sending him next door. The ramifications were much larger and more serious than that. Again, I'm not saying I agree with the policy, just wanted to add that perspective.

I have to say that I agree with the comparisons to other forms of discrimination on this, and nobody would be supporting this policy if it were just about any other minority group. And isn't the ease of identification from the uniform just a really simple case of profiling, which got everyone in a huff just a few years ago? Oh the hypocracy...

...But Marines aren't a "minority group". Why is this so difficult to understand?

That said, thanks to commenter 57 for contributing to the discussion. I think bars ought to be able to anticipate and address trouble w/o resorting to a policy like this.

"I'm going down to 18th Street Lounge with a copy of the law in my hand so I can demand those assholes let me in with open-toed shoes."

Good luck, but it won't get you very far. D.C.'s statute might be written broadly, but if challenged in Court it would never hold up. Aside from protected classes of individuals, the courts have generally sided with business owners on issues of membership and admittance. Businesses are permitted to have a dress code, in spite of how the D.C. law might be interpreted--and the ESL doorman isn't likely to be swayed by your views either way.

Actually I thank God every day for the 'personal appearance' section of the DC code. I'm fairly homely, and not getting any prettier. I'd never get in a bar in DC if I didn't carry a copy of the code and a very small lawyer in my pocket every time I went out. Plus, if it's the correct pocket, the tiny lawyer can massage my 'manly areas' as only a four inch lawyer can.

"...But Marines aren't a "minority group". Why is this so difficult to understand?"

African Americans aren't a minority group in DC. So I guess its fair game for bar owners to refuse to serve them.

Fucking Christ you're still missing the point. The reason Marines can't be considered a minority group in this context has nothing to do with numbers - or do you think I meant that the majority of DC residents are US Marines?

Guest 57:

Don't assume no one here has anything in common with Marines. My partner was in the Navy for years (enlisted) and many of my friends are military.

Yes, many who read this blog are college educated. But college educated doesn't automatically mean elitist, as your post suggests.

And I appreciate you not giving us a 'song and dance' about Marines fighting to protect our freedom. We're well aware of the sacrifices that Marines and their families make, both during wartime and not.

I'm not denigrating the Marines at 8th and I, but a good many of them have primarily ceremonial state-side functions - the drum and bugle corps, ceremonial honor guards, etc. I may be mistaken, but I don't think most of these guys are going to front lines in Fallujah anytime soon. Not that that makes them any less patriotic - they are just serving in a different capacity. Perhaps someone with more of a current connection with 8th and I could correct me if I'm wrong.

And I beg to differ on Marines at 8th and I being held accountable. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Ask a resident that lives very close to the Barracks. It's primarily a good relationship but there have been decades-long nuisance problems involving Marines that have never really been addressed by the Marine Corps. Again, the vast majority of Marines are fine. But some Marines get drunk and throw up in residential front lawns, they have sex in cars in front of our houses (often with very large girls with huge Jersey Forks, which makes it that much more of a spectacle), they clean their cars out and dump the trash in our front yards, etc.

Yes, the same things happen in residential streets around, say, colleges. But I expect more from the US Marine Corps, especially given the near-absolute control they have over their personnel. All of that type of thing could be nipped in the bud, as it were, with the correct instruction from the Marine Corps itself.

And most college kids, at least in DC, don't routinely go gay-bashing. At least not with the fervor that a few Marines do.

But I do agree that it's sad that only a small population fights in US wars. We'd have a whole different foreign policy if we were, say, more like Israel, where all young men and women serve at some point (even the gay ones, I might gratuitously add).

As for discrimination.... yes, it sucks. But I find it sortof ironic that you find this discrimination so terrible, given the Marine Corps's less than stellar history with discrimination on a MUCH broader scale than bars having a policy that Marines have to be either in uniform or with a date. Just ask any gay person that has wanted to serve honorably in the Marines. And ask any gay person that has been taunted or beaten by Marines encouraged and weaned on the discriminatory practices they see practiced in the Marine Corps. Or ask any a black person, both historically (when the Marines fought hard to keep them out) and now, when they often face discrimination. Or ask any atheist or Muslim or Hindu (in today's forced Christianization of the Marine Corps atmosphere). And ask many of the women that currently serve in the Marines.

#72: "I'm grew up in Capital Hill and I live there now"

Wow. Not to get involved in your debate, Guest #72, but with a mere 11 words, you have made an incredible statement about the quality of DC schools and the link between money and politics on Capitol Hill. Cool.

Yes, I agree. To Jamie and J-crew chick: We need you here for two things--1)To continue to dodge the real issue, and 2)To proofread all of the comments for typos.

#72, I agree, it's SAD.

72 -

"when out of nowhere, literally, a white guy typical of what Capital Hill has become"

Can you elaborate on what that means?

Has anybody posed the question of how do you even identify a Marine that's not in uniform?

There are so many wannabees in this area with the tight haircuts and stuff. Heck, even mall (i.e. Springfield not National) security guards adopt that look.

#72

I do not doubt that you encountered racism on the Hill, or anywhere else in this segregated city for that matter. You don't know anything about me, because you wrote me off by looking at my clothes. That is my whole point. It is different than judging someone on their skin color (I can change my clothes but not my skin), but it isn't much better and it doesn't get us anywhere. You have no idea how much I agree with you on how much of an asshole that white guy was to you. The point is, you have no idea what I have seen, what I have done, or what I think. I am focusing on the clothing issue because of the assumptions that you make about me. Racism is real, and alive, and ingrained in our society more than anyone wants to talk about. I know this, very, very well. Or can you not tell that I have a degree in African-American studies from a very good university by looking at my outfit? No, you probably couldn't, because you were too busy judging me rather than talking to me.

I do not support people bashing you on a typo, or making assumptions about your education.

As a frequenter of Hill Bars, I'll mention the following:

Phase 1 (the lesbian bar on 8th) does not allow men (EVEN if they're gay) without a date, primarily for the same reasons as the Hawk N' Dove does not allow single Marines.

Also, the Pour House - right next door - does not have the same policy, but has been victim to quite a few drunken-Marine related mishaps...including the destruction of the toilet on the main floor, 2 Marines attempting to walk out the door with a full keg of beer, and countless bar brawls.

I'd also be willing to bet that the Hawk N' Dove doesn't enforce the "single Marine" rule at all times of day/night or all days of the week. Just on their busy days...

ABC has been cracking down on DC bars with great force for the past year or so. The Hawk N' Dove has been busted for underage drinking more than once, and I'm sure their liquor license has been/is in jeapordy. I've seen many a Marine (and others, admittedly) leave the Hawk N' Dove with beers in their hands...yet another violation that the H&D would have to deal with.

Just my two cents...or so!

Bars suck anyway. Dim lighting, blaring awful music, teetering horny (often belligerent) jackasses spilling their drinks all over the floor and each other.

You're just going to the wrong bars at the wrong times.

Match.com? I don't think so.

Adultfriendfinder.com FTW!

Or just get drunk in the privacy of your own home, like a decent person.

I have no problem with this.

Monkey:

You've ruined 'special alone time' for me now. All I can think of when I'm having 'special alone time' now will be that image of you and your bottle of Wesson. Question: Do Rap Snacks float in Wesson oil? You could play an impromptu version of You Sank My Rap Snack Battleship if the video gets slow.

But I agree about drinking alone at home. I prefer to do it lights off, in the sweltering heat, on a crusty couch, adding drama to the night by seeing how many shots I can swill before an intact bead of sweat drips from my skanky unwashed emo hipster haircut to my butt crack.

So far it's eight shots of Jack single barrel, plus two peach schnaps (I mean, dear God, I am a poofter after all, redneck upbringing notwithstanding).

To anonymous guest #77: And what do we need you for? To say "me too?" Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Personally, I think peppermint schnapps is gay-er than peach schnapps, but I have found the former refreshing after an evening of forced muffdiving. Your mileage may vary. And since I quit smoking, I reserve Rap Snacks Battleship for the inevitable post-pud-pounding scattershot peeing contest.

Also, the only thing that compliments the flavor of BBQ Rap Snacks is a pina colada flavored Phillies blunt. No lie, G.I.

Rat and Monkey:

Why is it always just the three of us at the end of a blog? I know why for me - I am simply incapable of shutting the hell up. But you two - I assume you have actual lives or jobs or something.

But it inevitably makes me sad that I'm the only one of us that hasn't got an uber cool animal affiliation in my blog name. Makes me feel, you know, a little dead inside.

As for your forced muff-diving..... boys, nobody's forcing you to ride the crimson wave or yodel the crusty canyon. As our mutual heroine Nancy Reagan said, Just Say No.

But, please, by All That's Holy (or at least induces shame and can be shamelessly manipulated for a buck), don't convert to my side of the aisle. I've been blamed with bringing over several converts that my tribe now blames me for nearly every time we have a secret tribal meeting.

Actually, can we trade a few back to your side? You can have Mark Foley and that Florida Republican that offered $20 bucks to the cop in the park bathroom. We'll take two as of yet unnamed trades.

Oh, and Rosie. Please take Rosie. We won't even ask for a trade. Her you get for free.

I was almost assaulted in a bar on the Hill a few weeks ago by a rather rambunctious group of marines. Normally, I'd admit to doing something to cause my own grief, but these guys were enormous. When I left the bar, they followed me out, and tried to come after me. Thank God there were 5-6 of my coworkers with me who convinced them that it wasn't going to be a good idea to attack me.

Of course, this was after one of them had taken off his shirt and was running around on 2nd street screaming at the top of his lungs...

I've been a student in DC for the past four years now; while most of the marines I've met are outstanding citizens and examples, I've heard of many going to the Hawk and Dove and many fights happening after the fact.

I can also say firsthand that several marines tried to force their way into a fraternity party on campus twice in the last six months, and then attempted to pick a fight with the brothers at the door (and would have, in one instance, if ten other brothers hadn't immediately rushed out of the house as backup).

As others have said: if you don't like the policy, frequent other bars. But there's a reason for the rule.

Ironic, considering that the last two times I've been to the Hawk and Dove, it was seriously intoxicated girls who started a fight.

Hawk and Dove is a clown bar. No mimes allowed.

I remember a bunch of Marines were at a Chuck D show at I think Nation about 15 years ago and they just started heckling and I really didn't get it, why did they come to a benefit for women's issues, why for gosh sakes did they wear Che Guevera t-shirts, why did they hang out with all the lefties at this benefit if the moment Chuck D complains about American Culture's treatment of the Black Man are they going to start heckling? All the feminists in the audience were eying these guys warily the whole night. here's a guy chatting with a lesbian couple and he's got a full anchor, globe and knife tattoo on one bicep and Chesty w/ Semper Fi on the other.

Some of those Marines are seriously, seriously, seriously, seriously, seriously, seriously, conflicted.

Hillman,

A response to your reference/question about Barracks Marines and their roles. You're right about the Drum and Bugle Corps motivators...comlpetely ceremonial, unless the make a lateral move to a fighting/deploying MOS. However, the Ceremonial Marching units are all Infantry Marines that have been temporarily stationed here in DC. The typical tour for one of these Marines is 2 years. While there are some who stay for 3 or 4 (subject matter experts of sorts), there are also those who punch out after 1 year. Ultimately, they all leave, and, when your Marine Corps Infantry these days, that means heading over to Ye Olde Sand Box. I think an important fact to note is that there is no aspect of the Marine Corps recruiting process which offers enlisted infantry the opportunity to request 8th & I Barracks duty. As with most things in the Marine Corps it's "Needs of the Corps before the need of the individual." Every young Marine marching in the ranks and carrying a rifle over there joined to fight for his country, and I dare say that just about everyone of them would gladly forgo the security of Barracks life and the additional Blues Blouses for the chance to be oversees with the rest of their fellow Marines. A significant number of your senior NCOs, and all the Staff NCOs and Officers in the marching units have come from the Fleet Marine Force, and are almost certain to have combat experience. Also, the Barracks has the usual administrative/supply/logistics support staff who also rotate to and from the Fleet.

I hope that clarified the Barrack's personnel issues.

As for the rest of the issues (not just your stuff Hillman, but the whole bloody mess of it), it sucks, but so do a lot of other things. Many of those other things suck more, some less.

Wow I didn't even know this about Hawk and Dove, but I know quite a few people who frequent this establishment. However, after finding this out, I'm definitely encouraging everyone I know to stay away from this place. I am completely insulted by such a policy!