August 6, 2007
Solo Marines Often Refused Entry to Some D.C. Bars
Last month we got a letter from reader Christine, who related the follwing story and asked us to look into it.
I recently moved to Fairfax, VA to live with my parents until my marriage next month to a marine who is stationed at 8th and I Marine Barracks in SE. After their Friday evening parade, many of the guys like to grab a beer or two. This Friday, myself, my fiancee, and five others decided to grab some drinks. We decided to walk down to Pennsylvania Ave. to find a bar that didn't require a taxi ride home. The first place we found was the Hawk N Dove. Not the kind of place I normally would frequent on a Friday night, but it has a small room downstairs with a TV that they can watch sports and drink beer.
As we go in, we were informed by the gentleman checking IDs that "house rules" states that "no marines without dates are allowed in." Apparently, since our group had only two females, only two of the guys were going to be allowed in. Now, I understand that it is common practice to try to keep the male/female ratio somewhat even in a club by not allowing guys in. The Hawk N Dove is not a club. It is crap dive bar with a sketchy ass dance floor that serves disgusting hamburgers. I cannot believe that they do not let people in because of their occupation.
I was more upset that I was the only one who was taken aback by this. My fiancee's friends informed me that this happens quite often -- they are told that because they are marines, they are not allowed in, but other males are. Is this common practice in DC? Does the DCist know of some unofficial list of bars that don't allow members of the military? Should my fiancee invest in a wig to hide the crew cut so he can have a beer three blocks from the capital?
Hawk N' Dove's manager Paul Meagher confirms that this is in fact official policy of his bar, though he clarifies the policy also allows unaccompanied marines to enter if they're in uniform. Meagher said that the policy was first put in place in the 1990s, around the time of the Gulf War, due to a series of incidents inside the bar involving destruction of property at the hands of marines from the nearby Barracks.
"If they behave responsibly, they are welcome," Meagher said. "So we ask them to be in uniform or be with a date, because women seem to calm them down ... There's a boys will be boys kind of thing to the 10th power when they're just out and about. It's amazing how (the policy) works."
Meagher wasn't sure if other bars in the Marine Barracks neighborhood have similar policies, but he thought that a few others might. He also said that the policy wasn't necessarily directed only at the Marine Corps -- admitting that his staff would be hard pressed to tell the difference between marines and members of the Army -- only that with the Marine Barracks so close by, in general they are who the the policy affects.
Do you think this is a reasonable policy for a bar to adopt?
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This is disgraceful and ridiculous.
Ridiculous. I've been living and drinking on Capitol Hill for ten years and I can't remember ever seeing Marines brawling in a bar. You may see some Devil Dogs out being loud and stupid on occasion, but nothing over the top and certainly much less obnoxious than Trustifarian Congressional interns.
I'm sure that some LNS boys were similarly aggrevated with Saint Ex's "no popped collars" policy.
Can we get some bars to adhere to a "no single hill staffer" policy?
Or how about a "no interns" policy?
Do they allow members of Congress in solo, or do they have to be with interns?
I remember the days when it was a common occurance for Marines from the barracks to target and trash bars along 8th street and Pennsyvania ave. Gay bars and their customers were a particular favorite.
Shrug. It's reasonable, but it's also reasonable for members of the military to avoid that bar in the future.
I for one don't plan on going there any time soon.
Yes, it is ridiculous. My advice is to stay away from the bars in SE on Pennsylvania between 1st and 4th Streets if you're a minority, a Marine, or if you don't regularly shop at J-crew. I hate to say it. I'm a 20-something African-American woman living in Capitol Hill, and occasionally I like to frequent neighborhood bars for happy hour so as to stay close to home. Unfortunately, the racism and sexism is so rampant at a number of those local bars that I now refuse to support them. I'd prefer to venture out to other neighborhoods, or if I just want dinner or drinks near my apartment, I'll go to 8th Street. It's a shame how a couple of close-minded individuals can impose their irrational rules on people that aren't causing the REAL problem.
Gay bars and their customers were a particular favorite.
I guess that makes it all the more ironic that many of their patrons are closeted Marines. You'll never go to a Marine Corps base anywhere on the planet that there isn't a gay bar within a half mile of the front gate.
If they can ban 'droids from bars in Mos Eisley, then I guess Marines in Washington is reasonable as well.
Are you freaking kidding me?????
They should have kept gone next door. Tune Inn is a much better dive bar anywar, and I can't imagine them turning away anybody!
wait, the thing is, though, anything *reasonable* about this would involve *a big group* of Marines getting rowdy. And I doubt they'd be like carefully inserting themselves one by one to do that.
So why not just say "listen, no groups of more than 6 dudes."
I'll back up sharonc. Phase One and Bachelor's Mill on 8th Street used to get LOTS of fagbashing jarheads back in the '80s. Some of that attitude would spill over to Mr. Henry's and bars closer to the Hill. But I haven't heard anything of the kind happening recently.
You know who I blame? Lee Harvey Oswald. All it takes is one a**hole to give loner Marines a bad name.
That is pretty amazing. It's somewhat amazing that they have the policy, but it's really something that they're willing to actually admit to the policy. I'm with the 12:12 comment above--just as they have every right to choose a crazy policy, we have every right to pick another place to drink.
Tunnicliff's is better anyway.
I got no beef with it. If they think Marines unaccompanied by ladies behave badly and are detrimental to the well-being of their other customers, ban 'em.
Mixed opinions on this one. Hawk and Dove sucks ass generally. Their food is almost inedible and they seem to clean the joint once a month whether they need it or not. But the beer is sometimes cheap, by DC standards.
But I've seen Marines in Hill joints getting out of control. Used to happen in Zacks a lot, especially when they found out that Renee, who worked behind the bar, wasn't born female.
And I do remember when Marines threw a smoke bomb into Remingtons back in the late 90s. It was quite common back then for Marines to harass gay bar patrons and just random people they thought were gay.
What sucks of course is that this wasn't all Marines. But, let's be honest. With their haircuts and such they really do all start to blend together.
And there really are a lot of Marines that are decent people. Probably the considerable majority are fine, but generally and when they go out to have a good time at night.
What really needs to happen is for the Marine Corps to police their own. I guarantee you that crap would stop with a few well-placed admonitions from their superior officers.
But that may or may not happen. I'll never forget going to a neighborhood meeting back in the late 90s when several high-ranking Marine officials, representing the Marine Corps, told us point blank that they considered the neighborhood a ghetto and that we were damn lucky to have them in our neighborhood.
Whilst I post.... it'd be really helpful if the Marine Corps would educate their newbie Marines on the facts of life in urban areas. I constantly see young Marines giving our resident street thugs $20 or more when asked for change. These are the same folks hanging out and breaking into cars and houses at night. A lot of that crap would stop if Marines were instructed that they aren't helping anyone by giving street people $20 bills when asked.
"I've been living and drinking on Capitol Hill for ten years and I can't remember ever seeing Marines brawling in a bar."
Well the post does say the policy started in the early 90s, and that this isn't the only location with such a policy, so it could just be that you haven't seen a Marine brawl due to the policy (though I doubt this is the case).
Marines were causing trouble at the Hawk & Dove just a few weeks ago. Hey, they stand for bigotry and exclusion and now they complain about it? Not welcome in my city.
The Hawk & Dove is, indeed, terrible, and there are plenty of better choices on 8th St SE that welcome the (in my experience) well-behaved Marines.
Hawk & Dove's loss.
"or if you don't regularly shop at J-crew"
I hate to say it, but Hmm...discrimination much? Let's all judge each other based on where we shop. Doesn't that sound fun?!? Then, when we are done, we can all stand beside each others lockers and laugh at whoever doesn't fit in.
Looks like this bar made a business decision. I think it is a narrow minded decision, so I will no longer go there. How did this became a rant on where people shop?
It is a privately owned bar. Yes, this may seem unfair, but the owner is entitled to this policy. I don't think it's actually that unreasonable - many a time by the Capitol I have seen Marines getting blitzed off of Midori sours and other such lightweight drinks and then proceeding to act ridiculous. Not cool.
I should clarify that the anti-gay stuff still happens, mostly out front of Remingtons. And it's nearly always Marines that are doing it. Usually just verbal taunts, as it's actually sortof embarrassing for a Marine to actually get in an altercation and have his ass kicked by a gay guy or, worse, an actual drag queen.
It's probably just a few Marines doing this. But, again, it's lack of leadership from the top in the Marine Corps. If it was made clear that even the slightest bit of this crap would result in severe punishment this stuff would stop.
And I should clarify to say I have seen Marines giving lots of money to panhandlers, but my earlier comment that I "constantly" saw actual $20 bills was overly broad and written too quickly. That much was fairly rare, but common enough that us residents noticed it.
Looks like it made digg...
http://digg.com/offbeat_news/Marines_Not_Welcome_in_DC_Bar
HM - I'm surprised to hear that USMC officers would be so impolitic in such a public setting.
If you're a bar owner or worker that's having trouble with stupid Marines, the threat of a call to the Staff Duty NCO usually works wonders.
I often come across Marines who are rowdy, bigoted, and immature. Seems to come with the territory.
I've only been in DC since 2001 and I've heard more than one story about marines getting unruly near barracks row, including one where a friend got a knife pulled on him by a marine. So if the bar wants to ban marines, and if that seems to be solving the problem, they can go for it. In the same way, just as people have said above, they can choose another bar to drink at. However, I'd like to point out that this would be an entirely different thread if this were done with racial profiling... not encouraging the argument, just mentioning it.
Rat:
I was a bit surprised too. Of course, at the time the neighborhood was high crime, but it's one thing for everyone to hedge politely and allude to that, it's another thing for officials to flat out say in no uncertain terms. I sortof admired their honesty if not their lack of tact or nuance.
I went to a womens college near an (at that time) all-male military college, and I found that you had to be very aware, and very vigilant when you were near the guys from that school....they were all hands, etc., and usually with NO provocation.
Judging from my own experience, that bar's rule doesn't surprise me...It certainly doesn't mean that I think it's right, but it does remind me of my college days, and I really did tend to stay sober when those boys were around. (I know it's an over-generalization, and I do know some men who went there who were and are perfect gentlemen.)
I’ve seen some solo Marines act like real idiots and start crazy shit in bars, but the same can be said about solo civilians.
this would be an entirely different thread if this were done with racial profiling.
What's your point? It would be an entirely different thread b/c it would be an entirely different scenario.
"I often come across Marines who are rowdy, bigoted, and immature. Seems to come with the territory."
um, I often come across PEOPLE who are rowdy, bigoted and immature at bars. I'd say that kind of behavior goes with drinking regardless of occupation. It's just easier to spot a gaggle of marines than to identify a specific group of drunken idiots. I think bars should kick out people who cause trouble - not people who are only flimsily related to other people who at one point in time caused trouble. They'll act the same because they wear the same hats? But it is bar owners' right to be thick-headed about it and to lose business from the patrons they exclude.
These boys are over there in eyerack fightin' for our country. Let 'em have a few beers! God bless America!
Having been sucker-punched by a drunken enlistee several years ago and been witness to some of the agnst with which groups of military men can bring to a neutral environment, I can understand H&D's position, though it is unlikely to be a popular one with the public.
One should note that the initial problem arose during Desert Storm. A much larger population of men currently overextended in Iraq and lacking adequate mental health services is likely to be 'high risk' - especially when and where alcohol is consumption.
If this were a ban on members of the NAACP or Black Panther Party or immigrants without green cards, would there be outrage by everyone on this site??
What next? Not allowing African Americans into the bar. I won't be going to Hawk 'n Dove anymore!!!!!!
I see the wingers have been notified.
Some spoiled little intern probably got his ass kicked by a Marine, and his lawyer dad probably sued the shit out of Hawk n Dove.
I stopped going to H&D when my last Jumbo Hawkburger exploded in my pants. I'd be more worried about getting typhoid from the glassware than getting bashed by jarheads.
And, yes, it is their right to be thickheaded and to lose business.
Maybe Graham will ban Marines from the District.
In response to Hillman, I think the Barracks leadership has tried to impose at least some discipline. I know a couple of guys who've been stationed there for a few years, and one of them told me that Remington's, for example, is one of the bars they're not supposed to go into -- not for any 'don't ask, don't tell' reasons, but b/c of the fighting legacy. How seriously anyone treats that rule, I don't know.
If it is okay to ban Marines, is it okay to ban any group, such as an ethnic, religious, sexual or cultural group? How is stereotyping okay in this case but not in others?
RyanK, it is because the groups that you mentioned are protected as a minority status in most places,and choice of occupation (no pun intended) is really and truly a choice. Actually because the Hawk and Dove is privately owned, they can let whomever the hell they want in.
Here's what they need to do: file a complaint of discrimination (on basis of sex, occupation, or both) with the DC Office of Human Rights. Their address is http://ohr.dc.gov/ohr/site/default.asp
Hell, it's not just the combat veterans who are mentally unstable. All Marines are a little bit cracked as a result of the bizarre training they are subjected to.