February 11, 2008
Would You Prefer Single-Gender Buses and Trains?
We're always interested in new ideas and policies playing out in other major cities around the world, and this morning The New York Times reports on a fascinating experiment in public transit planning going on in Mexico City. Buses and trains in that other Distrito Federal are apparently awash in frotteurs, and complaints by women of incessant random groping and rubbing on the city's public transit system have led to the establishment of women-only buses.
Now, D.C.'s Metro system has certainly seen its fair share of groping, but it's nothing at the level of what goes on in Mexico City. Still, we can't help wondering whether some women in Washington wouldn't mind having the option of a single-sex bus, or maybe just a single rail car on 8-car trains during crowded rush hours, to avoid having to deal with potential frottage. What say you, ladies?
Over at The Nation, Feminsiting blogger Jessica Valenti thinks the Mexico City policy has some serious problems:
I'm pro-breathing space, but I have larger concerns as well. What happens when a woman is groped - or worse - in a train car that isn't women-only? Will she be blamed for not taking advantage of the "safe" space provided? (After all, women are all too used to being blamed when it comes to assault, questioned as to why they were out on their own/wearing a short skirt/drinking.)Good point, not to mention the question of whether gender segregation helps or merely perpetuates a culture of sexual harassment being seen as normal.
And by no means to make light of the topic of sexual assault, but we would of course be remiss in publishing something about frottage without linking to the seminal work on the subject.
Photo by digital_don
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You mean, I can finally get on a bus where a seat or two or seven isnt being taken up by a purse.
I'm a woman, and the last time I got catcalled, it was by a bike messenger...who was also a woman. Just sayin'.
Call me crazy, but maybe people should just learn to not grope?
Heh. You said "seminal."
Japan has had same-sex subway cars since 2001. Always in the humpy vanguard, those Japanese. And as a hyphenated-American, pervert-of-gender, I take issue with your use of the outdated term "frottage." The clinical, dry-hump-sensitive term is indeed "frotteurism." Some of us walking boners have feelings...IN MY PANTS.
As a bus rider who routinely does not grope or otherwise molest my fellow passengers, I would be less than happy to stand out in the cold as three bunched-up, behind-schedule women-only buses speed past me as I wait for my special sausage-party shortbus to arrive.
Metro can't run on schedule, stay within budget, or get elevators/escalators to work.
This may be a bit beyond what they should be worrying about.
cue the cultural relativism crowd to crow about how being flirtatious is all part of latin "culture." really, what the fuck is wrong with people? keep your hands to yourself unless invited to do otherwise should be a common sense rule of thumb.
and can we please have a post about macaca allen or lns to calm me down? i'm way too worked up for 11:30 on a monday morning.
Pretty sad that Mexico City can't address the problem of dudes molesting women and goes with an option like this. Tasered testicles of offenders should usually dissuade such kinds of groping.
Hell no. Next question?
This stuff happens all over the world, regardless. It's ridiculous to "solve" the problem by having a "boys" bus/train and a "girls" bus/train. We should come up with another solution.
Two words describe why this is a bad idea.
Synchronous menstruation.
cue the cultural relativism crowd to crow about how being flirtatious is all part of latin "culture."
SRSLY.
How would Mexicans like it if Americans brought their culture - drinking to excess and projectile vomiting everywhere - to, say, Tijuana or Cancun?
Ok, so how about rather than sending lawbreakers to prison, establish and island or their own country where they can do as they please? Bitch, please.
Well, if they're going to have single-gender trains, they might as well have a dining car (so people can drink their mocachinos and eat their french fries in peace), a sleeper car (so self-centered clods can sprawl out on both seats), and a club car (so the iPod-earphones-blasting-Nelly crowd can go deaf without disturbing anyone).
>As a bus rider who routinely does not grope or otherwise molest my fellow passengers, I would be less than happy to stand out in the cold as three bunched-up, behind-schedule women-only buses speed past me as I wait for my special sausage-party shortbus to arrive.
QFT.
Hey ladies, if somebody gropes you, take a picture of them with your cell phone camera. I'm sure WMATA will be happy to plaster their ugly mug all over the stations so that particularly jackass can never ride again.
The answer here is not separate but equal. The answer is to stigmatize the wrongdoers.
and of course, no one is broaching the issue of same-sex frotteurism, which has the potential to be an issue here.
i agree with those who say we go the simple way. keep your body to yourself. regardless of gender, if you're rubbing up against someone, you should get busted for it. if i didn't ask for it, i don't want it.
If they are close enough to frotteur, they are close enough for me to break their toes.
The private Hasidic commuter buses running between Rockland County and NYC have a curtain in the back and women sit behind it so the men can say morning prayers. There has been a protest and New Yorkers can't figure out if they are dealing with Rosa Parks or a rude, lazy woman without religious sensibilities.
Footnote: when these buses wear out they are put into service between DC and NYC. Seating is open; prayers are optional and silent. Passengers who know the mileage on these rigs are more likely to pray.
Monkey: For several years before college I worked a weekend job at a doughnut shop with two girls I went to high school with. Two of us were on birth control, with our fourth week coming at different times, and the third... well, she kinda synched up to both of us, with the result that her period came twice a month. Definitely not cool for her.
I'm personally glad for these women that they have an option for riding to work and home without being groped, but clearly they in Mexico are dealing with a more severe problem than we have here. It's easy to say "they should just learn to stop groping," but meanwhile real women are having a miserable experience daily trying to get around. I don't object to them adopting this bandaid-like resolution given the severity of the situtation - but it's not a solution. As far as attacking the underlying problem - whether you like it or not, there's nothing wrong or culturally relativistic to acknowledging that there is a wider cultural acceptance and practice of groping in Mexico City (and among certain groups of men, not only Latinos,) and it needs to be addressed. Lastly, being "flirtatious" is a far cry from assaulting someone physically - and yes, any unwanted touching beyond truly accidental bumping is assault. If your culture values the right to assault people, then screw your culture.
It will never happen in the US butglad it's in Mexico. When my mother and sisters were visiting DF, they had to beat off the men who were leering at them on the subway. Gross.
i agree that wmata has too many issues they should work on before thinking about same-gender transportation options ... but i'd love to hear folks' ideas here about what chicks should do if they find themselves victim to a groper/frotteurer/asshole. because no matter what the masses think, it happens. it happens regularly. and it is INCREDIBLY unpleasant.
realistic reactions also welcome
i like the taser to the balls idea best. seems like a fast and effective behavior modification tool.
Separate-gender cars is the norm on the subway in Cairo.
"they had to beat off the men who were leering at them on the subway. Gross."
Is that reverse psychology or something? I have never been a groper but had I known about this I would have been doing it all along. Consider me a convert.
It warms my hackles to see how resolutely anti-sexual-assault DCist readers are.
Pat yourselves on the back, folks. You're taking a firm stand on a controversial issue.
How about the fact that this is pretty much unconstitutional?
Seriously? Ladies, invest in a fucking Taser. Some guy gropes you, yell "GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME" and then Taser his ass. Then WMATA has no excuse about not being able to arrest him because:
1) He's lying on the ground writhing in pain.
2) You have a bunch of witnesses.
Plus, the prospect of having the entire female DC bus-riding community on the same menstrual cycle terrifies me. I'm no scientist, but I do get scared easily.
Fine, but can I ride the girl bus?
NOOOOOOO!!! The bus is where I get the most marriage proposals and date offers from drunken old men! It would be so sad to lose that.
And as for "watchman's" question: "but i'd love to hear folks' ideas here about what chicks should do if they find themselves victim to a groper/frotteurer/asshole":
Ummmm, ladies, is it that hard to turn to a groper and tell him off? I do it all the time. In addition to the public humiliation, guess what, they usually stop when called on it. Are we all sluch delicate flowers that we can't handle an asshole with a wandering hand on a bus from time to time? No, it's not right, and no, I shouldn't have to deal with it. But it's really not that difficult to tell someone to just plain F*ck off.
When some asswipe gives you the Bad Touch, just do something that leaves a scar. That way the rest of us can recognize him. Thank you.
they had to beat off the men who were leering at them on the subway. Gross.
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Kojack.
Kojack who?
Kojack off in your hat.
(a cop on the beat)
The point is moot. Such a move would involve government action (WMATA as a government entity and in partnership with the federal government) on the basis of a gender classification, which is a quasi-suspect classification. The government would have to prove an "exceedingly pursuasive justification" that separating genders on buses and trains is related to an important government interest. While affirmative action to remedy past discrimination against women is generally upheld, it seems like the Court would have problems finding that justification without a real pandemic of groping, maybe like that in Japan or Mexico.
Isn't male privilege a wonderful thing?
Go read HollaBack in any of the various cities with lots of women on public transit. I'm sure the 13-year-old girls who are subject to groping & harrassment really have the tools & confidence to deal with the situation. Not to mention the fact that NO ONE DOES ANYTHING when you call someone out on this behavior, which is why women are taught to yell "FIRE" instead of "RAPE" when they're being assaulted.
Apart from the 'freedom from sexual harassment' aspect of this topic (which no one can rationally oppose in general), there is something uncomfortably Taliban-esque about this idea.
Instead of a "women-only" bus, how about a "frotteur-only" bus? Though unsuspecting riders might have a tough time explaining why they were late for work.
delicate flower my ass! if anyone here has been harrassed or groped before they know that often yelling or telling the person to fuck off just gets more damn unwanted attention.
goat boy: i need to buy me a taser
and so far i think recspecs has had the best idea here so far. way to go
Mexico City buses are beyond crowded, they are to the point that you start seriously questioning if you are going to be able to breathe. In a Mexico City bus at rush hour, the entirety of your body, from neck to knees, WILL be jammed up close against at least two other people's, so that you can feel their butts shift when the bus rounds the corner. In an environment as extreme as that, the woman-only bus makes sense.
In DC? Pfff.
Heck, I've heard of men groping men in this city.
Maybe we could just have a gropers only bus or train? That could really make WMATA some money! Classified ads would be a thing of the past!
...this will never work.
to badtzmaru: i think you've got some dangling participles or modifiers or something there with that "beat off" comment... or what the heck kind of bus were they riding? and no wonder they need gender-specific buses!
second: the buses in Rome are pretty bad too. but italian women are pretty assertive badasses (i guess).
third: it's a slippery slope to burkas. however we women could take to wearing refrigerator boxes in protest.
to badtzmaru: i think you've got some dangling participles or modifiers or something there with that "beat off" comment... or what the heck kind of bus were they riding? and no wonder they need gender-specific buses!
second: the buses in Rome are pretty bad too. but italian women are pretty assertive badasses (i guess).
third: it's a slippery slope to burkas. however we women could take to wearing refrigerator boxes in protest.
* sorry about the duplicate posts.
tasers are illegal in DC, so not an option for anyone.
tasers are illegal in DC, so not an option for anyone.
So's murder, reefer, and handguns. What's your point?
FYI, a Master lock makes a convenient single-knuckleduster but should NEVER be used as a means of self defense. Also, women should NEVER carry a brick in their purse to use as a bludgeon.
As a Mexican-American, you can rest assured that I won't be groping anyone in the above photo.