April 14, 2008
Help Us Decide -- Is U Street in Shaw?
Yesterday the New York Times published a review of new District hotspot Marvin, the Belgian-themed bar and restaurant sitting just north of the intersection of 14th and U streets NW:
Named for the “Sexual Healing” crooner, Marvin is a new Belgian bistro and lounge in the Shaw neighborhood where Gaye was born. Those taking an evening off from the darts-and-Dockers bar scenes in Georgetown or Adams Morgan say it feels more than a few Metro stops away from their usual haunts.Wait, Shaw? Yes, Shaw. But the Times isn't alone in making this claim -- the Washingtonian similarly lists Busboys and Poets, which is less than a block north of Marvin, as being in Shaw.
Is it really? Does Shaw extend as far north and west as some claim, effectively swallowing what has come to be known simply as U Street? Much like other debates on the ill-defined boundaries of D.C. neighborhoods -- remember North Cleveland Park? -- there's isn't a whole lot of clarity on the Shaw/U Street debate.
According to the D.C. Citizen Atlas, both Marvin and Busboys and Poets are in Neighborhood Cluster 3, which is listed as Howard University/LeDroit Park/Cardozo/Shaw and encompasses a swath of land between 15th and 1st streets NW and S Street and Michigan Avenue NW. Shaw spills over into Neighborhood Cluster 7 to the south also, though. According to Wikipedia's map of District neighborhoods, Shaw is a huge neighborhood that spans much of the U Street corridor.
Conversely, though, in 1998 the Greater U Street Street Historic District (.PDF) was included in the National Register of Historic Places, lending support to the argument that U Street and its surrounding environs are their own neighborhood. Additionally, Metro has two distinct stations for Shaw and U Street, and the Post lists both Marvin and Busboys and Poets as being in "U Street-Cardozo." To the business community, the U Street area is its own, though they refer to it as MidCity. Finally, Shaw Main Streets, a non-profit organization dedicated to revitalizing the neighborhood, focuses its efforts on the area between 7th and 9th streets NW and bounded by K Street to the south and Florida Avenue to the north -- the area most commonly associated with Shaw.
But to muddy the picture even further, it was the Cardozo Shaw Neighborhood Association that lobbied to have U Street added to the National Register of Historic Places. And according to their web site, they consider "Cardozo Shaw" to include everything between 16th Street to the west, 8th Street to the east, S Street to the south, and Florida Avenue, Barry Place and W Street to the north. (Notice the exclusion of 7th Street.)
So who's right? Is U Street merely a part of Shaw, or has it grown into its own distinct neighborhood worthy of formal recognition?
Photo by Ronnie R
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ouch my head hurts. but no, U st. is not shaw, imo
Generally, I've always considered Shaw's eastern boundary as Georgia Ave. I always thought that part of U street, if it needs a name, is the north side of Logan Circle.
However, I'm more troubled by the NYT writer lumping Adams Morgan in with Georgetown as a "darts and Dockers" scene. I don't know about the clothes, but is there anywhere on 18th where you can play darts?
I don't see how they're mutually exclusive. U Street's a street that's in the Shaw neighborhood. But if you want to split hairs you should use the real estate tax designation and call it Old City, but what's the likelihood of that happening? I think the distiction is something residents use to differentiate themselves from other neighborhoods. At what point does Logan Circle end and U Street begin? This is the kind of pissing match that Mount Pleasant and Columbia Heights have been in for years.
It really depends on who you're talking to. If you're trying to convince your out-of-town relatives and suburban visitors that they'll be safe, you tell them you live off hip n happenin U Street. If you want to namedrop your indie street cred on a woman in a bar, you'll tell her you live in Shaw. Works for other neighborhoods too, like when you want some attractive co-worker to come over for drinks you tell them you live in trendy Adams Morgan. But if you don't want jerk guy to know where you live, you tell them you live in a ghetto off Columbia Road. In both cases, you're telling the truth.
To me U St (9th St to 18th St) is a street in 2 or 3 neighborhoods. Western part Adams Morgan, Eastern part Shaw, middle part lower Columbia Heights. 14th and U is more Adams Morgan or lower Columbia Heights as that is just where you start climbing up from the flat lands of Dupont and Logan.
jeezus, man, the whole question is mootsville baby, mootsville: Within fifteen minutes, everything will be SILVER SPRING.
Watch those borders; It's coming to getcha! Nobody's safe. Canada, this is your thirty-minute warning...
Once upon a time there were neighborhoods in DC that had defined boundaries (more or less). Now it seems like people just toss names out whenever they want and a major culprit is the real estate industry.
I met a woman one time who told me she lived in "North Georgetown. I thought to myself, "where the hell is that?" Turns out she was talking about Glover Park.
Anyway, I think there will always be a debate as to what lies where. But in my honest opinion, 14th NW & U NW is definitely not Shaw.
oh holy god, this is like manna from heaven for me....
(cleans drool off keyboard)
ok, now that i'm composed, here's what i think:
this isn't a discussion that leaves a lot of room for nuance, but nuance is needed here. first, you need to read rob goodspeed's take on this here, specifically so you can see the map of the shaw school urban renewal area.
basically, "shaw" as a neighborhood name didn't come around until the shaw school urban renewal area was created, and that was in 1966. check out this site and download the shaw history PDF to read a lot more about the neighborhood's history.
in the end, the area that has been called shaw is slowly being carved up as parts of the huge area develop their own personalities. i think everyone would agree that logan circle has become a pretty well defined neighborhood, centered on the circle itself and the commercial nexus at 14th and P. truxton circle is another part of shaw, east of new jersey avenue and named after the old circle that used to be at florida and north capitol.
the u street area is part of shaw, but it certainly has it's own history, both before and after the shaw appellation came into being. like truxton circle and logan circle, i would say in a historical sense, u street is part of shaw, but it's its own neighborhood as well.
enjoy the nuance...
@dudelookslikealady - The Reef, for one.
@IMGoph
Are you serious about Truxton Circle? I always thought that name was some made up real estate agent BS.
I met a woman one time who told me she lived in "North Georgetown. I thought to myself, "where the hell is that?" Turns out she was talking about Glover Park.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Golly, I'd have thought she was speaking about Burleith--she missed a whole neighborhood. Psha, what ignorance!
Go ahead and laugh about Silver Spring annexing U Street, but I had the misfortune of trying to get to a hat store that claimed to be in "Silver Spring" but was NOWHERE freaking near Georgia Avenue or Colesville Road. Got friggin lost in Wheaton for half an hour before we tracked the place down. So yeah, you want to glom onto that neighborhood cachet as much as possible, because nobody in their right mind wants to go to "Kemp Mill Village."
Brother can't even get a decent porkpie nowdays. Ain't that a b***h?
There's mad confusion about this stuff all over DC. When I first moved to the Hill in '97 my Dad came over to my place and he was surprised that where I lived was considered Capitol Hill. My grandparents had lived in the same neighborhood some 30 years before, but back then it was called something else.
I am going to have to agree, Shaw, to me, ends at Georgia Ave...U street is well, justt that, U street, it's got it's own thing going on. I work right in the midst of all of this columbia heights, u street, 4th corridor, Adams morgan...U street has its own flavor just like all the others
but is there anywhere on 18th where you can play darts?
Try Kokopoolis
To make matters more confusing, Cardozo High School is technically in the Columbia Heights neighborhood. Don't tell Jim Graham or he'll try and change the Metro Stop signs again.
Can't we just call the whole mess "New Honkeyton" and be done with?
We know it's not in NoMa!!
Does anyone else remember when people were calling it "New U"? I think WaPo even had that as a neighborhood you could filter a restaurant search with.
also re: creeping silver spring...
there's an apartment building on 16th just south of U street advertising a room for rent... call the number and the guy will tell you that the apartment is actually in "silver spring"... coincidence?
Well, someone did try to make a neighborhood map at some point... but then they went ahead and just called NE one big neighborhood:
http://www.washingtonsbestaddress.com/neighborhood_map.htm
The other question is: what is the 14th street corridor? (by which I mean the area south of U on 14th St)
It's not shaw. It's "The Corridor" as my friends and I refer to that area. 10th & U to 15th & U and the surrounding area = The Corridor.
According to Destinations DC (the city's official tourism and visitors board), Shaw is defined roughly as "North of M Street NW and south of Florida Avenue NW, between 11th Street and New Jersey Avenue NW".
Clearly, there is a small part of U Street that is part of Shaw, but not as far west as 14th & U.
Cardozo really isn't a neighborhood, despite what some bow-tie wearing council member thinks. The name was derived from the High School, and that was named after a prominant African-American.
"but is there anywhere on 18th where you can play darts?
Bedrock Billiards on Columbia Road.
juanfe: That's actually a pretty good map of NW neighborhoods. And in its defense, it only purports to be a map of NW DC neighborhoods (plus Capitol Hill). At least Washington's Best Address is honest about where it considers Washington's best addresses to be.
But as I've said before, Windows maps has a pretty decent reflection of DC neighborhoods. Plus it's got that awesome Bird's Eye View.
I'd say it's part of the U Street corridor, or U Street area or whatever. Shaw, to me, doesn't go that far north or west, it stops around Q or R and about 11th or 12th.
Isn't the vicinity surrounding 14th Street south of U a mix of Dupont Circle and Logan Circle neighborhoods? At least that's what the real estate postings about 'East Dupont' seemed to claim in the late 90s.
reid: yeah, they only really make a claim to northwest neighborhoods, but it's interesting that they don't even label anything on the other side of the anacostia.
if we were to take their map as gospel truth, then u street is definitely part of shaw.
hillrat: yeah, truxton circle isn't like noma or dupont east, some crazy realtor creation. it was real. check out this article from dcnorth in 2005.
but is there anywhere on 18th where you can play darts?
The Reef!!!
So I have a question for you guys: I recently moved to an apartment near Meridian Hill Park, which is in between Adams Morgan, U Street, Mount Pleasant, and Columbia Heights. Which neighborhood should I claim as mine?
Also, I'm pretty sure Angles has darts.
Silver Spring has something like 15 zipcodes, what's a few more?
@tam82: that's a good nickname, but if I were you, I'd extend The Corridor to span between 7th & U to 16th & U. Then again, everyone on the west side of 15th street would bitch about not being able to call their neighborhood "East Dupont." Ppfffftttt.
I'm on board with the U street is a definitive area of its own, but can be considered part of the amorphous "Shaw."
I do not consider Truxton Circle to be in Shaw (I live there and consider Shaw's eastern boundary to be New Jersey).
Coincidentally, it's also U Street Month: http://ustreetmonth.blogspot.com/
@IMGoph
Thanks for the link, it's always cool to learn a little more about DC.
engineergirl - I'd say you live in Meridian Hill.
Either that or North Kilttown.
Engineergirl - I think if you're west of 16th you're in Adams Morgan.
And Marvin is definitely part of a fairly amorphous neighborhood I call "U Street." Not sure, but it goes at least as far south as T and north to around V/Florida. I would put its western boundary at 16th and just for fun let's put its eastern boundary at Vermont. That works for the imaginary map of DC I carry in my head.
Bedrock also has darts.
Screw darts. Where are the downtown bars that also have jarts?
Depends on exactly where "near" Malcolm X Park you are, engineergirl...if you're on the east side of 16th, that would technically be Columbia Heights. West side would be Adams Morgan, unless you're also a few blocks north of the park and on the west side, which is Mt. Pleasant. And if you're on the south side of the park, then you're probably lumped into this whole Shaw/U Street debate.
Re: which neighborhood you are in in relation to Meridian Hill Park:
It depends where you are in relation to the corner of 16th st and Florida Ave/ W st
NE is Columbia Heights
NW is Adams Morgan
SE is the fusing of the U street Corridor and Dupont (a fusing that begins at 14th street and ends at the Starbucks on 16th and U)
SW is the northern reaches of Dupont
Also, engineergirl, the fact you called it Meridian Hill Park implies that you're not an uptight hipster. As such, you're more likely to live in Adams Morgan, not Columbia Heights.
Man, do people on any of the other -ist blogs debate neighborhood zoning borders with such vigor?
JohnS - Are you kidding? Gothamist goes bats**t crazy over neighborhood street cred. If you live in Park Slope or Redhook, you're a yuppie poseur, but all the cool kids live in "the Bronx."
Funny how this happens. If the reporter had done their research, they would have discovered that Shaw and U Street were historically two different and distinct neighborhoods with different socio-economic and social histories, although both became predominately black beginning about 1900. I researched both neighborhoods for various projects, including the two walking tour trails and a book on U Street published in 2000.
"Also, engineergirl, the fact you called it Meridian Hill Park implies that you're not an uptight hipster. As such, you're more likely to live in Adams Morgan, not Columbia Heights."
Ah, but Reid, if you follow Yahoo! Maps, then both Engineergirl and I live in Kalorama Heights.
I think we DCisters need to draw up our map of the city's neighborhoods, as the people who know this city inside and out.
If you live near Meridian Hill Park, you live in Silver Spring.
I don't believe in Logan Circle.
Well, I live on 16th, a little north of Florida Ave, and I'm not an uptight hipster... so, combining what everyone has said so far, I live in Adams Morgan. Or Silver Spring.
By the Yahoo! Maps definition, I live in the "Union Station" neighborhood. Since when is Union Station a neighborhood? Apparently the "Union Station" neighborhood encompasses all of H St. That's pretty funny.
doesn't the whole silver spring thing come from the fact that there are no incorporated cities in that part of montgomery county, so the post office lumps in everything from olney to burtonsville as "silver spring"?
i remember having smaller versions of this debate when i lived near the forest glen station, and we were trying to figure out where silver spring begins and wheaton ends...
Shaw is just East Clarendon.
I want to bring back the Swampoodle name for NoMa. For one thing, it's historically accurate. For another, it's a cool sounding name. Sort of like Swamp Thing, but with a small French dog twist.
Well, Mr. House (or is it Mr. Man?) I know that when I write a brief article about a new nightspot and feel the need to mention what neighborhood said nightspot is in, I ALWAYS do a thorough job of researching the social and economic history of that neighborhood. Those New York Times reporters are just lazy, the whole lot of them.
Ummm . . . according to Yahoo Maps, there is no such thing as Adams Morgan (it's all Kalorama Heights) or Mount Pleasant (it's been gobbled up by Columbia Heights). That's an interesting perspective.
cranky: damn right, join the swampoodle army! we are glad to have you amongst our growing ranks.
I always thought it was sad that 14th Street didn't capitalize on the fact that some of the buildings used to be auto dealerships and come up with some sort of name for 14th Street that had to do with it's auto past.
Now that it's gone all hip I suppose 'auto-asphyxiation' may fit.
Cranky:
I'm with you 100% on that. Sadly, though, no one can seem to agree on the actual limits for Swampoodle's original borders.
The reporter need not do a full neighborhood history, of course, but they apparently didn't even bother to perform a basic google of "U Street History." It would have revealed the online Historic Walking Trail guides that accompanies both Shaw and U Street trails. Makes me wonder if they ever were even in DC; if they were, its likely they parked right under a "U Street trail marker!"
IMGoph - I think the USPS is just as lazy as the NY Times. No one wants to sit down and figure out what's what: where's Colesville, Aspen Hill, Wheaton, White Oak, Fairland, Calverton, Ashton, Sandy Spring, Hillandale...blah blah blah. I wonder if you could use the zip code + 4 to figure out what the neighborhoods are...
hillman: well, let's define those borders, since we're all here. i tend to think that new york ave to the north, new jersey ave to the west, the tracks to the east, and mass ave. to the south works.
that's probably a little more than swampoodle deserves, but all of that area either has very little character today (parking lots), or has a ton (sursum corda) that is about to be bulldozed...
I am starting a militia on the Cleveland Park ListServ to storm and overtake North Cleveland and officially name it Van Ness. It seems there have been a lot of geographical discussions on DCist lately...
I heard that it went as far as 6th Street or so on the East. But I don't know that for sure.
Swampoodle is everything between Silver Spring and Capitol Hill.
So Gonzaga is part of the Swampoodle neighborhood - they should totally play that up. Apparently "Swampoodle Grounds" was also home to the Washington Nationals, circa 1886. Great idea for anyone looking to open a local coffee shop.
Makes sense - Gonzaga was built to serve the Swampirish who lived in Swampoodle.
Don't people embrace Wikipedia anymore?
"A geographic approximation of its borders would be K Street to the north, G Street to the south, 1st Street NW to the west, and 2nd Street NE to the east. Through the center of it, just east of North Capitol Street, ran the principal branch of Tiber Creek, creating the low swampy ground from which the area took its name."
I would say in my estimation that U Street does technically fall within Shaw (maybe only to 14th or so), but at this point in spirit it has its own character that is deserving of a unique designation. Of course I might be a little biased since I live there, but Shaw is huge. If all I say is 'I live on U Street', people generally know within 3 blocks exactly where I am.
Well, no one's going to read this far down, but hell's yeah it's Shaw. Look up anything historical on Ben's and it's on the U St. corridor (the "Black Broadway") IN Shaw.
Folks just like to call the neighborhood U St. or whatever else since it's better for property values and sounds way trendier...heaven forfend it's associated with that ethnic "Shaw."
It's all going down in U-lumbiaPleasant Circles St.
Just wait til DC's totally and densely urbanized from Capitol Hill SE up through Mt. Pleasant and even Cleveland Park...just like lower Manhattan. (Wishful thinking, I know!)
Darts aside, I'm just annoyed as hell that Adams Morgan has been lumped in with the "darts and dockers" crowd... jenga and jack*sses maybe, but "darts and dockers"?! NEVER!!!!!
But once again, nice to see the NYTimes deciding to write something about the District and essentially getting it all wrong....
crosstown traffic: you bring up a good point that no one is focusing on. there's been a big deal lately in shaw regarding the neighborhood name and using it in a new citizen's association group. people talked about how there is definitely baggage in some circles with the name "shaw" now. anyway, that's a long story, i don't feel like writing anymore today!
a little bird told me that the pope would be making an unannouced visit to gonzaga to offer a blessing to his special crack team of jesuit ninjas AND offer papal dispensation to all catholics who died to keep swampoodle out of the clutches of the protestants. can anyone confirm this?
also, the little bird has been impregnating virgins so WATCH OUT.
Monkey:
Will the talking snake be there as well? That's my favorite Bible fantasy creature.
"If the reporter had done their research, they would have discovered that.."
Remember, all this started with one line in a few restaurant reviews.. it's not like these articles were about the neighborhoods themselves. I do NOT expect food reviewers to do the research required to accurately identify the different names a particular neighborhood has had over the past 100 years.
politburo: but the commentariat here has such exacting standards! everyone must adhere to our whims...
“This place is cool enough for someone as cool as me,” said Mr. Fletcher, 37. He had tried a Belgian beer, but switched to bourbon. “I drink what I drink,” he said.
Now I can see why NYC douchebags would love a place like Marvin. When is the LNS crowd taking this joint over?
"Well, no one's going to read this far down, but hell's yeah it's Shaw. Look up anything historical on Ben's and it's on the U St. corridor (the "Black Broadway") IN Shaw."
Except the name Shaw wasn't coined until the 60's. Black Broadway was coined during the 40's & 50's.
Late to the game, but IMO the only ones who say U Street isn't Shaw are fooling themselves or trying to fool others. Shaw's huge. In places it goes North past U (it pretty much stops at the Hill up to Columbia Heights). To the East it brushes up against Eckington/Bloomingdale/LeDroit. To the West it borders with (and includes some so-called) parts of Logan. Draw the Southern Border at the CBD/Chinatown.
ps- Just ask anyone who's lived in Shaw for 20 or more years what they the borders are.
Shades of "Dupont East"... sheesh.
When my friends were looking to buy a place in Shaw a few years ago, the real estate folks were touting it was "Logan Circle East". Hi-larious.
dcdolly: see, i'm waiting for shaw to become chic enough so that they start calling bloomingdale "shaw east"
and so it goes...
You're not a real neighborhood until you've got your own crazy homeless guy that everyone calls "The Mayor."
"See, i'm waiting for Shaw to become chic enough so that they start calling Bloomingdale "Shaw East"
As opposed to being called "the ghetto"?
And the mayor has to have an army of dogs living in his coat.
hey drew, i'll take my chances walking around bloomingdale at night over adams morgan any day of the week.
I've been pondering this question since I moved to the U Street Corridor. I just decided that it was a part of an apparently huge Shaw that due to the popularity of the corridor, rarely gets acknowledged. I do still get confused by the few "North Logan" pitches by realtors. What happened to the whole "MidCity" bit?