DCist: Neighborhood Debates Controversial Response to Crime

CAGer

Thu, 22 May 2008 07:54:30 -0500

Principal! Sorry, I know I misspelled principal several times in the post above. My bad.

CAGer

Thu, 22 May 2008 07:44:49 -0500

It's not a strictly apples to apples comparison, but Hine Jr. High, with 100% black enrollment, is doing a little better than Watkins elementary (one of the elementary schools on the Hill with a mixed population) on test scores. Hine had no principle for years, now it's got one, and the change in the kids' performance (and the kids' behavior in the neighborhood) is pronounced. Eastern had the opposite problem--too many principles (5 in 3 years, I think), but now has a good one and the school's PTA was happy with the way things were pulling together. These are the two schools in the PG feeder pattern, they start to make progress, and DCPS chooses to blow them up. In the case of Hine, that was purely a real estate decision, not for the educational benefit of kids in the schools here on the Hill. Meanwhile, Maury and Brent Elementary are doing much better recently, and at Tyler Elementary there are stirrings of progress; kids at those schools will need JR High slots soon, and those slots could have been provided at a Hine Jr High, making Hine a shining example of successful public schools and successful cooperation among kids of varied social and economic classes right here in the heart of the Hill. That opportunity might be lost, if Hine gets blown up. That's where you come in. In advance of marching on PG, how about working with people on the Hill who want DCPS to make a different decision about Hine--keep it open, even if that means a new, more appropriately-sized building on that site. It's good for you, good for your property values, good for comity between the social classes on the Hill, and your support for keeping Hine open, because it coincidentally benefits the families in PG, will give you something positive to talk about with the residents of PG when your march arrives at PG. There are lots of other good options for school closings to reduce overcapacity in DCPS. Nobody's for keeping too many schools open. But let's keep Hine open for a lot of reasons, not least of them because it's an institution that's instrumental in addressing the problem you have with some kids at PG.

ibc

Wed, 21 May 2008 21:08:02 -0500

"So, let's shut down the schools that PG kids attend..." If the two alternatives are to either keep all the current schools open at 40% capacity, or to close some, and consolidate so that enrollment is closer to 70-80%, then yes. If the two alternatives are to either "keep schools open for PG kids" or "shut down the schools that PG kids attend" that's a bit more difficult. But because the first scenario is an accurate representation of what's happening in the real world of DCPS, and the latter is a cartoonish over-simplication, why don't we concentrate on the former.

CAGer

Wed, 21 May 2008 19:18:20 -0500

So, let's shut down the schools that PG kids attend. How does that help? Does that increase or decrease the number of actual, specific kids who are attacking regular folks with rocks and other weapons? Does that make PG'ers want to cooperate better with you to deal with your crime fears? Or does it increase the chances that they feel picked on and put upon?

downtown rez

Wed, 21 May 2008 15:43:47 -0500

ibc grasps the situation.

ibc

Wed, 21 May 2008 13:39:19 -0500

"Developers are waaaaaay ahead of you when it comes to getting those darn black kids out of the neighborhood mileu." Try to wrap your mind around this: You are arguing against a straw man. Without your ridiculous claim that folks want "those darn black kids out of the neighborhood" your argument has no legs, and you know it. The bottom line is that no one is arguing this. What people want--a few race-baiters like yourself aside--is for actual, specific kids who are attacking regular folks with rocks and other weapons to stop. If they won't stop voluntarily, there should be a combination of increased police presence and evictions of repeat offenders. Now here's the crazy part: the reason this shit's important is that if it doesn't stop, then the *whole* PG community gets a bad rep. And that means that the goodwill that is necessary to their continued access to public housing is undermined. And yes, 450 PG residents go bye-bye. The argument is about how to *prevent* this from happening, not about how to facilitate it.

CAGer

Wed, 21 May 2008 01:25:55 -0500

Also, note just for Hillman: You suggested, "...drive to the swank new Harris Teeter a block or two from this complex, then drive by Potomac Gardens." Get out of yer car, Hillman. Drive-by's are so 1990s. This is the livable, walkable neighborhood, big man.

CAGer

Wed, 21 May 2008 01:02:22 -0500

Relax, gentrifying friends. At the urging of local Hill developers, Hine Jr. High is shut, Eastern HS The Pride of Capitol Hill will not get any more freshman classes and has just three years, then two years, then one year and then it dwindles away. Tyler Elementary? Those same developers see big, big changes coming there, too. In other words, the biggest institutions supporting those fearsome PG kids are already dismantled--Hine, Eastern, soon Tyler, all gone! Developers are waaaaaay ahead of you when it comes to getting those darn black kids out of the neighborhood mileu. They have plans to take away public use of the pretty and historic Carnegie Library, snatching it from the DC Public Library system, and then they will develop it. Why? They are developers. And you will see a LOT fewer black children hanging around the library, once its developed. Friendship House, behind the library? They're just not "team players," and their days are numbered, in the vision of these developers. Their vision for the Hine Jr. High site? Well, they'll consider taking some "community input," but whatever yammering the community comes up with, two things are "done deals"--they preclude any use of any part of the DC public school site by DC Public Schools, and they will bury AT LEAST two floors of parking across 100% of the Hine Jr. High site. That should attract many, many cars to this excellent, walkable neighborhood (and no, it will not take any cars off the street, silly.) So lots more traffic, more cars, and no, you can't use the pretty library building anymore, either. Tough luck for you. Their vision is slowly, only now, turning to closing PG itself, but just you wait. They are late in getting to this, but they will roll the 450 families out of there smoothly when the time comes, don't worry about that. The developers always get what they want. They won't be checking in with you to ask your advice, and if some part of their vision is something you don't like, tough luck. You won't know about it until it's been a done deal for a long time. We're sure you don't have a problem with that, right?

Hillman

Tue, 20 May 2008 11:48:40 -0500

"Man, I can't wait until all our millionaire Chinese and Indian overlords migrate to DC and gentrify all the White and Black people out of town." I knew it. Every time my Szcechuan House delivery guy delivers he keeps looking into my house like he's thinking 'It's only a matter of time, white boy, and this will be all mine....'

ibc

Tue, 20 May 2008 09:19:00 -0500

I can't wait until all our millionaire Chinese and Indian overlords migrate to DC and gentrify all the White and Black people out of town. Well, as long as they pay me ten times what I paid for my house--since we've established the precedent--I won't complain too much.

monkeyrotica

Tue, 20 May 2008 09:03:32 -0500

Man, I can't wait until all our millionaire Chinese and Indian overlords migrate to DC and gentrify all the White and Black people out of town. Maybe then we'll finally have a decent Chinatown again. But by then, it'll probably be filled with Chinese Cheesecake Factories and PF Changs and Jaleo-san's where you get $40 small plates of Szechuan tapas and the only place anyone will be able to afford to live in will be either a culvert in Seat Pleasant or a yurt made out of tarps and toiletpaper tubes.

Hillman

Tue, 20 May 2008 08:40:53 -0500

"with a little bit of luck, this will all be sound and fury, with no real action. then both sides can go back to their usual bitching." True. So true. But since bitching without action is DC's official sport, at least we'll always have that.

Mike Licht

Tue, 20 May 2008 08:22:45 -0500

Attention crime victims: counseling works. Get it. Seriously.

Mike Licht

Tue, 20 May 2008 08:01:12 -0500

The person who originally posted the March on Potomac Gardens idea just posted a comment at http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/march-on-potomac-gardens/#comment-1967

ibc

Mon, 19 May 2008 18:48:24 -0500

"Our city made this situation, with help from federal policymakers; it is clearly dysfunctional, and we are going to have to push DC government to change it. We can't simply export it." You know nothing of this region's history, then. "This situation" developed over time because of racially based "red-lining," and an intentional ghetto-ization of the District by surrounding municipalities, and the federal government. Exporting it is as simple as demolishing a housing project, and giving its newly homeless denizens a token payment. Rental prices will take care of the rest. You'll find almost no political support for such a course now, but if middle-class residents' only experience with the poor is to be attacked by them, it won't be long down the road? "The current municipal administration is giving away the capital budget to downtown interests and needs a swift kick in the pants from voters as a reminder that the city belongs to the people who live here -- us and the folks in Potomac Gardens." Listen, there's a reason there is so much tension around the whole "gentrification" issue: the demographics of DC have changed irrevocably. My guess is that in future elections, you'll see a whole lot more swift kicks in the pants aimed at folks like those that live in Potomac Gardens, than big "downtown interests." Let me clue you in: At one point, the DC electorate consisted of the black middle class, and the urban poor. These two groups voted as a block, the poor in their own interests, and the black middle-class because until recently, they too were poor, or because their neighbors and friends were poor. Or out of racial solidarity. The black middle-class threw in the towel and moved to the 'burbs (or Atlanta, or wherever...). Who do you think sold the swanky white gentrifying elites those $550k Federal-style townhouses? Call me a cynic, but I think it's wise to recognize the fact that, in the history of throw-downs between poor black folk and middle-class white folk in US history, it's not the middle-class whites who usually end up with the short end of the stick.

trenchline6

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:04:27 -0500

Oh man, can I please tell you how excited I am to see Hillman's comments. As someone who lives "directly" accross from PG I strongly agree with him. It's about time someone spoke out. I feel like I've been totally alone on this. I'll give you an example: my wife and I went to a meeting with police several months ago for people in our neighborhood. We waited quietly in the back of the room for people to finish complaining about some spray paint on a wall this, or speeding cars that...then we raised our hands and said 'hey. do you think you could get someone to patrol a little more on our street? a couple nights ago we had a gunfight and we still have a 9mm round lodged in our tree in the front yard.'...people were aghast...and they lived only a couple streets over. Were we so disconnected? Did no one else speak for us or a war zone of a neighborhood? I mean, less than a week ago there was another gunfight in there. Nine shots, two different guns. And there's some on this board that say it's MY FAULT? Whatever... Oh, and I just love the touchy feely "potluck" idea. Send over the Blackwater PSD guards Mr. Wells, you're gonna need 'em. And maybe after the dinner they can come over and take a crap behind my house like the crackhead I busted on Thursday morning trying to do -- or was that Saturday evening?...happens so often I can't recall which. Here's the deal guys. All your little social wellfare prescriptions and bleeding heart diatribes ain't gonna do squat to keep that gun from being pointed at Hillman's crotch or mine. What if he'd apologized to those punks for being "rich"? They would have laughed their heads off and definately pulled the trigger on him for being stupid. They could care less. They think it's fun and more tutoring or libraries or after school programs won't do a damned bit of good. And lastly, do you whiners think I'd live here anymore with my baby daughter and wife if I could afford to live anywhere else? I am where I am because it's all I can afford -- just like those thugs in PG, right? So I'm going to join with Hillman to make this place as safe as I can, I owe it to my family to keep them alive and healthy. I say march brothers and sisters. Maybe then someone'll listen!

IMGoph

Mon, 19 May 2008 15:33:14 -0500

it's late in the game here, and i feel bad that i missed this whole discussion last week. let me just say bravo to everyone who got themselves worked up into a lather over this whole deal. with a little bit of luck, this will all be sound and fury, with no real action. then both sides can go back to their usual bitching. ain't DC grand?

monkeyrotica

Sun, 18 May 2008 11:08:38 -0500

I'm a bit disappointed. Can't you bring us a hangman as sexual fetish link? Ask and ye shall recieve.

Hillman

Sun, 18 May 2008 09:31:36 -0500

"No one wants to live in Potomac Gardens if they don't have to." But a good many able-bodied people do choose public assistance in DC as a lifestyle choice, instead of actually working for a living or making other hard choices, like moving to the burbs where housing is less expensive, or moving to another area altogether. That is a choice. And it's a selfish one, as it often damns their kids to a fairly toxic living environment.

Hillman

Sun, 18 May 2008 09:29:19 -0500

"As to moving poor folks to the suburbs, will you give them automobiles and get then licenses? Currently they have neither, and that's what it takes to live out there. Of course, that's assuming the suburbs want our city's poor, an unlikely proposition." There are quite a few suburban locations with very good Metro and bus service. As for the burbs not wanting the poor,that's pretty much true, for the most part. That's why DC has shouldered more than our share for so long. It would take us shaming them into doing their fare share. As for rebuilding Potomac Gardens, the obvious answer would be build higher, and with a better density (currently it's a fairly inefficient use of space). I think the vast majority of residents would support that if it meant getting rid of what's there now. And you wouldn't need to replace each tenant there now at the same location. There's no reason additional mixed income can't be built on any number of the parcels the DC government already owns, all throughout the city.

downtown rez

Sat, 17 May 2008 21:12:27 -0500

Oops, my bad. The single biggest item is "human support", after that comes schools, and then public safety. http://www.dcfpi.org/?page_id=139

downtown rez

Sat, 17 May 2008 21:09:12 -0500

Mike: I thought the single biggest item in the capital budget was the schools, not downtown interests, however one defines that.

Mike Licht

Sat, 17 May 2008 18:48:20 -0500

Hillman: If Potomac Gardens is demolished and "rebuilt as mixed income housing," what's the mix? 20 percent poor folks to 80 percent gentry? The new development would be 5 times larger in the same space. Do you think that would fly? As to moving poor folks to the suburbs, will you give them automobiles and get then licenses? Currently they have neither, and that's what it takes to live out there. Of course, that's assuming the suburbs want our city's poor, an unlikely proposition. Our city made this situation, with help from federal policymakers; it is clearly dysfunctional, and we are going to have to push DC government to change it. We can't simply export it. The current municipal administration is giving away the capital budget to downtown interests and needs a swift kick in the pants from voters as a reminder that the city belongs to the people who live here -- us and the folks in Potomac Gardens. Until the Wilson Building comes around, we can help one kid at a time, by tutoring. Friends of Tyler School has helped 300 kids since 1990, most of them from Potomac Gardens, and 90 percent have graduated from high school, the first step towards moving on to jobs and other housing. No one wants to live in Potomac Gardens if they don't have to.

monkeyrotica

Sat, 17 May 2008 15:59:18 -0500

Hillman - You can't win. But there are alternatives to fighting. [Hint: I use these holds for smuggling, but I never thought I'd be smuggling myself.] And who's the bigger fool: the fool or the fool who follows him?

Hillman

Sat, 17 May 2008 09:57:39 -0500

Monkey: I'm a bit disappointed. Can't you bring us a hangman as sexual fetish link?

Hillman

Sat, 17 May 2008 09:57:09 -0500

Mike: Interesting idea. Actually, I fully understand why some of the decent residents of Potomac Gardens don't take a more active role. They have to live with this crap every day, literally right outside their door. I completely understand their concerns about their own safety. And most are probably smart enough to know that they can't necessarily rely on the DC police to protect them. What really needs to be done is simple. Potomac Gardens needs to be demolished and rebuilt as mixed income housing. That is now a very valuable piece of land, and I'm sure a developer could easily be talked into redeveloping it. In an ideal world the residents would actually be relocated to the suburbs (or the few areas in DC that have access to decent schools), where their kids could attend decent schools and where the prevailing culture isn't one that encourages violence and failure. But barring that, at a bare minimum the warehousing of the poor should end. Rebuild as mixed income. As soon as possible. That's an immediate and relatively easy step. A longterm step would be to continue revamping the idea of public welfare generally. Start requiring some responsibility on the part of recipients. For all those that can work, require work. For those that need it, require mandatory drug and alcohol rehab instead of jail time. For those that simply refuse to be responsible after having been given ample opportunity, take their kids away and boot them out on the street. Of course, these solutions take money and political will. The money would actually be fairly easy if we took a long-term view..... for every dollar invested in real public welfare reform we'd save countless dollars in lower crime costs and lower future welfare costs. The harder part is the political will. That, sadly, is in short supply in DC. And little we do have is greatly undone by political pandering and misplaced anc counterproductive cries of racism and classism.

monkeyrotica

Sat, 17 May 2008 06:35:33 -0500

See, this is what happens when you get rid of the death penalty. The hangman holds our society together. He is the symbol of the great chastiser. He built this world on punishment and fear. Snuff out fear and see what follows. Sons strike their doddering dads. Young girls show their ankles and bosoms and say rude things about the First Lady. Anything goes, and they do it openly in the street and frighten the horses! Bring back fear! In the old days, the executioner kept the common herd in order. When he stood on his gallows, you knew God was in His heaven, and all right with the world. The punishment for blaspheming was to be broken on the wheel. First, the fibula, crack. Then the tibia, patella and femur, crack, crack, crack! Then the corpus, ulna and radius, crack! Disconnect dem bones Dem dry bones Disconnect dem bones Dem dry bones Disconnect dem bones Dem dry bones Now hear the Word of the Lord! And what a great investment opportunity! Simply bring back hanging and go into rope.

Mike Licht

Sat, 17 May 2008 01:14:30 -0500

So Hillman, sounds like you and the victimized residents of Potomac Gardens should get together and march on the Wilson Building. I'll go, too.

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 23:49:32 -0500

"Bottom line, it is pointless and insulting to the entire DC community to protest the existence of a housing project in a "newly developed" area because it makes the more affluent residents uncomfortable." UStreetGirl, I actually went back and read your actual posts. What an enormous load of bullshit. As one that's been robbed at gunpoint by residents of Potomac Gardens, let me be one more to tell you how stunningly fucking stupid and insulting the gist of your posts have been (especially the 'uncomfortable' comment). As the little shits held a gun to my genitals I felt a tad bit more than 'uncomfortable'. Perhaps, though, according to you I should have spent my time apologizing to them for being 'affluent'? You know, as I was busy working my ass of 70 hours a week at a bullshit dead-end job? Only to come home to get jacked up by the very neighbors whose housing I was paying for. Incidentally, it's often the equally poor residents of Potomac Gardens that are the victims. Not just us 'affluent' people, who apparently deserve it for the crime of, you know, not volunteering nearly as much as you do, and for our crime of 'affluency', which apparently to you means anyone that has a damn job. And sorry I couldn't volunteer more. I was a bit too busy trying to convince PG residents to not shoot my fucking gonads off. That, and working 70 hour weeks just to scratch out a decent living for myself and my family. I really do respect people that volunteer in any capacity. But I get really fucking tired of people like you chastising us Hill residents for not volunteering to your standards. Perhaps we just got tired of doing it year after year. In any event, it's really annoying to have prima donnas like yourself telling us that somehow it's our fault that public housing residents are jacking us up on a pretty routine basis, all because we didn't organize enough midnight basketball tournaments. To that, all I can say is you have some fucking nerve. Volunteering is great. Moralizing about it to others (especially crime victims) in such a condescending way pretty much sucks ass. As for the number of people victimized by residents of Potomac Gardens, I'd say a conservative estimate would be hundreds per year. And it's a safe bet most of them felt a bit worse than 'uncomfortable'. You may think hundreds of crime victims per year is insignificant. I'm betting the actual victims think otherwise. Also, your statement that Hill residents are protesting the existence of public housing itself is ludicrous. This is a very liberal neighborhood (maybe if you actually lived here you'd know that). Very few people are saying we don't have a moral obligation to provide housing for the working poor, the elderly, etc.. What we are fed up with is the way it's managed and done, not the fact that it exists.

Mike Licht

Fri, 16 May 2008 18:44:44 -0500

Residents of Potomac Gardens know about crime. They are frequent victims. There probably isn't a steel apartment door in the place that doesn't bear the marks of break-ins. Why don't witnesses come forward? Fear. Justifiable fear.

Bethesdaist

Fri, 16 May 2008 16:29:55 -0500

I think shame sticks are listed under "extremely casual encounters."

alexandria

Fri, 16 May 2008 16:24:15 -0500

This is nothing new; look at this blog in Alexandria, we are having almost the same issues with public housing here in Alexandria as well. http://parkergray.blogspot.com/ The funny thing is no one on here wants to blame DCHA or the City Council and march on them. No one wants to march on the public housing advocate organizations. What I have learned is that you cant always blame the residents in these cases, as not every one of them is a crook. You can certainly blame their enablers though.

DC1

Fri, 16 May 2008 15:43:08 -0500

Flash mob? No way -- that's classist. You need to have access to the internet, cell text messaging, a beeper, or at least know someone who has one of these. More yuppie talk

MikeB

Fri, 16 May 2008 15:30:10 -0500

How about a flash mob? It's been a while since I've seen once of those.

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 15:23:49 -0500

Depends on whether the shame stick has dog doo on the end of it.

OldPosterKnownAsCranky

Fri, 16 May 2008 15:21:16 -0500

If you post a wanted ad on Craigslist for a shame stick, I wonder what sort of responses you would get?

DC1

Fri, 16 May 2008 15:17:16 -0500

The whole thing is very amusing -- the idea of a virtual posse doning plastic sheriff badges and imposing law and order by wagging their shame sticks and calling out the bad guys. How could this possibly be met with anything other than derision?

ricky d

Fri, 16 May 2008 15:14:49 -0500

The "these kids are mad because their aunties got chased out of the neighborhood" and "you can't move to the ghetto and complain about being ghetto" arguments are seemingly specific to DC and completely ridiculous. They're just ways for people to snipe at other people who want change. Kids commit crime because they're bored and/or broke and don't expect to get in trouble, not for ideological reasons. And the conditions that constitute "the ghetto" are caused by FAILURES of urban planning and economics, so why the hell can't you complain about them? The march is a terrible idea, though, because it targets people instead of acts. You can't possibly blame everyone who lives in a housing project for crime, especially given how many people who live in your average housing project are elderly people who are often victimized by thug kids moreso than the local gentrifiers. No one should be forced to tolerate crime. There's a reason you go to jail for it. Go to some housing projects in Brooklyn that are surrounded by gentrification. I promise you for every resident who says "wow all the police presence has made my life difficult" you'll find two who say "things are really looking up around here." Of course, that level of police presence would require a decent police department, and there's the rub.

Mike Licht

Fri, 16 May 2008 15:05:14 -0500

So, a march. Then T-shirts, right? That should solve it.

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 14:56:29 -0500

Oh, I've contributed my share, and then some. It's time someone else shared some of the blustery load, so to speak. Oh, come on, you know that's at least a little funny. Self-deprecating, with a vague sexual connotation. What's not to love?

DC1

Fri, 16 May 2008 14:39:47 -0500

Where you at Hillman?

DC1

Fri, 16 May 2008 14:39:29 -0500

Only 83 comments on a good ole DCist classist donnybrook? Come on people -- I'm gonna lose on my over/under for tripple digit comments by 3pm without a little hustle.

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 14:13:08 -0500

Reid - Were they in white makeup and black leotards? That would be the notorious Sidwell Friends Pantomime 'Crew' of Northwest. I got jacked by a gang of them once, but I managed to trap one in an invisible box. He got out with a pantomime hammer, but only ended up doing a Marcel Marceau running-against-the-wind bit so he was pretty easy to nab. It was the scariest and quietest 8 minutes of my life.

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 14:04:57 -0500

The Electric Slide versus the Humpty Dance? Ain't no winners there, my friend. Call me when they're moshing against Da Butt.

Reid

Fri, 16 May 2008 14:04:34 -0500

That's not funny Monkey. I was once mugged by a bunch of ruffians threatening me with jazz hands. Obviously I crumpled up. The last I saw of them, they were pas-de-deuxing back Sidwell.

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:56:05 -0500

What could possibly go wrong after you start jazz hands? I'm a bit surprised we haven't ended all Middle East conflict with a rousing round of jazz hands, all around. Or is that spirit fingers?

hillrat

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:51:22 -0500

In lieu of a march, how about a dance-off between groups? What a laugh riot that would be, watching the Chicken Dance go up against the Soulja boy.

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:45:52 -0500

Hill East is gonna have their day....to-niiiight! Hill East is gonna have their way....to-NIIIIGHT! Potomac Gardens grumble, "Triflin' whites!" But if they wanna rumble, we'll rumble 'em riiiiight! TONIGHT! [jazz hands]

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:41:42 -0500

It looks like it's up to me to ask the critical question: what does Heidi Montag think of all this? More importantly, when will John Mayer write a soulful, coochie-begging song to heal all our wounded hearts?

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:33:37 -0500

"There is already much bitterness among PG residents ......... to the influx of white yuppies. " Ah, yes, the bitterness toward people that are literally paying your rent, providing your food, paying for your police and fire protection, paying for your medical bills (including all the costs associated with having your children)..... But I have to agree with Cranky. A dance-off would be unbelievably swell.

Bethesdaist

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:33:30 -0500

This reminds me of when the angry citizenry of Kenwood marched on the people from Rockville Pike, screaming "Stop calling this Bethesda North! This is Rockville! You are not worthy!" It was ugly. I don't recommend this strategy.

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:30:51 -0500

Interesting tidbit in today's Washington Business Journal..... The DC area ranked third in the nation for job opportunites for 'the youts'..... people 18 to 34. Austin and Raleigh, NC were the only areas in the nation that offered better job prospects for the young. Yet so often in DC you year that these young men and women are somehow forced into crime because they can't get real jobs. Actual reality would beg to differ. In arguable the world's richest country they are in the third best area for jobs in their age category. It really doesn't get much easier than that.

OldPosterKnownAsCranky

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:29:06 -0500

In lieu of a march, how about a dance-off between groups?

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:21:33 -0500

"Even the most sympathetic among us has to agree that the idea of filling ugly, fenced off isolated buildings with impoverished people (or anything or anyone, IMHO) of any walk of life is a horrible idea no matter how you look at it." Actually, no. There is a very active 'keep the public housing complexes as they are' group in DC. It's mostly 'housing advocates' and pandering local politicians. Witness the giant hullaballo that surfaced when the terrible slums around the new Nats stadium were torn down, to be replaced UNIT FOR UNIT with brand new housing for every single former resident. Brand new units in a much safer neighborhood with tons more job opportunities and way less crime. That still wasn't good enough for the 'housing advocates' crowd. What they won't say is they are actually advocating protecting a 'culture' that they feel is more important than actually getting people out of poverty.

Spiral Stairs

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:16:03 -0500

I live near ground zero of this controversy. (In fact, I cruised on over to DCist to suggest to Martin -- who, I knew, is a member of the New Hill East listserv -- that he should write something on it. Thanks to the mysteries of wormholes, he had already taken my suggestion.) I cannot imagine how any "March on Potomac Gardens" (whether officially or unofficially denominated as such) would be positive. Platitudes about "including everyone," and making sure that "the good people in Potomac Gardens" are included are senseless. The march would be a nearly totally white group marching "on" a (as near as I can tell) a totally black community. It won't have racial undertones; it will have an overt racial complexion. There is already much bitterness among PG residents (and other longer-time residents) to the influx of white yuppies. Further clarifying this divide by physically organizing into a distinct group won't help anything. I don't have a quick solution (or a slow one, for that matter). But a march of the sort contemplated on the listserv would be a train wreck.

Carl3000

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:15:34 -0500

Why don't you jsut build a wall around it. i have created a simulation of what this would be like

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:11:24 -0500

See, now, all you people always be hatin on the suburbs, but at least down in Prince William County, you don't gotta worry about some thug from the projects mugging your ass. You just gotta worry about getting your ass run over by an Escalade while crossing the parking lot to get your chai latte. And the Mexicans. Be fair, you need to worry about your mortgage adjusting and your Mcmansion being forclosed, but you don't have to worry about being mugged. And a multimillion dollar budget defecit that doesn't make a goddamned bit of sense, but you DONT have to worry about getting mugged. And you're going broke heating your house, but getting mugged? Forget about it.

Krisa

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:09:38 -0500

Um, don't you think that a march is probably more aimed at the residents who are law abiding to get them to speak out and eliminate the criminals from their homes? Asking for the PG residents to march together with others is silly, because they're probably of the no-snitching mentality to begin with. The last thing they'd want to do is come out publicly and make themselves targets. But maybe something vocal and in their faces like a march would encourage some to go behind the scenes and talk with police to get these people out of the cycle of crime. If there's no safe haven for criminals, then the crime would decrease, one would assume. I'm not saying this is the best possible solution, but I don't think any of the comments thus far had really addressed the root issue, which is not race or wealth, but the rampant protectionism of criminals in these kinds of living environments.

Mike Licht

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:03:41 -0500

Like ustreetgirl, I have tutored kids who live in Potomac Gardens and visited their homes a number of times. The kids have all lived with mothers or grandmothers, so you can ignore any comments above that use the word parents. Many of the grandmothers do not work; they are disabled and can no longer do the physical labor they started as youngsters, the only work they have known. Many mothers have little education and some have had youthful run-ins with the law which middle class families would have had expunged but limit employment possibilities for poor women. Higher-paying jobs in the cash or informal sector provide more cash for their families, but often send them back to jail or prison, so their children are raised by grandmothers. Tutoring helps. Heaven knows DC schools won't. Instead of marching on Potomac Gardens with torches and pitchforks, perhaps the listserv army could volunteer with Friends of Tyler School. Click on that link and see the faces of the "enemy."

flapjack

Fri, 16 May 2008 13:02:13 -0500

As someone once told me in reference to helping and encouraging those less fortunate than me "if you can't help everyone, don't help anyone." Have we really reached that point? I sure hope not. Even if you have no concrete proof that what you're doing is helping does that mean you should give it up altogether? I have no proof that my one vote will bring about any kind of change but does it stop me from voting? Millions of people have no proof that God exists but does it stop them from believing? I don't know what we should do in this situation but to tell someone that they shouldn't even try to help at least one person achieve a better life because you think it's a waste of time is absolutely ridiculous. I'd love to hear what all of your teachers have to say about it. Imagine if they'd given up on you (or any other student) because they didn't like the type of life you were born into...

MtP

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:57:14 -0500

How about we work on a Start Snitchin' campaign. First thing we need is a theme song. But who could we get to record it?

Woo

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:50:16 -0500

Marching on PG is a terrible idea. It's not wrong, however, to be concerned. I understand that there may be some frustration with property values in the area. I'm doing fine for myself, and I can't even begin to pretend considering thinking about evaluating buying anything anywhere in DC, let alone a row house in the Potomac Ave area. So I'm sure it's harder for people who have been there for a long time and see the neighborhood change. That does nothing to excuse PG teenagers harassing area residents with racist taunts and thrown rocks. It doesn't excuse the violent crime. And it doesn't excuse the sheltering of these offenders by the PG community. I'm sure the majority of PG residents would be happy to have an end to all of the crime in the area. Something needs to be done so that there's some kind of rule of law in the area. Right now, there's not.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:48:54 -0500

Hey, at least they're paying for it with their taxes when they're working.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:47:55 -0500

Yes, lets build condos for people who decent livings. Middle incomers deserve more help from the government than poor earners. This city needs middle class families with children; this city is expensive for families who earn decent incomes. We should provide them with housing subsidies so we can build up the middle class again. We should drastically reduce the amount of welfare that the poor get. If they don't like it then they can join the middle class by working hard and receive a subsidy by those means.

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:47:26 -0500

I have to wonder how many of the Hill East crowd are lifers and how many just bought into the realtor spiel "it's Capitol Hill so this neighborhood's gotta be safe?" I used to live near the Arthur Capper dwellings but I knew what I was getting into when I got an apartment there: I didn't have a car that could be broken into, the windows and doors were barred, and the street in front of my place had a lot of vehicular and foot traffic. And I knew which streets to avoid after dark. I don't want to blame the victims, but you can't move next door to Cabrini Green and complain that there's a housing project in your backyard and why won't they get jobs like decent, hardworking, godfearing people? And as bad as it is, this ain't nothing compared to what it was like in the '70s, when everything south of the Southeast Freeway was a highrise poverty storage box. Once DC started substantively cutting ADC and other benefits, a lot of these families headed for PG County where the benefits were much more generous. You think you got it bad in Hill East, get thee to Seat Pleasant. They'll shank you for driving the wrong color car.

ustreetgirl

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:44:04 -0500

I don't live in the neighborhood (I live on U Street, as you might guess) but if you live, really, in any urban community, you're going to have to expect a certain level of crime. Especially if you live in a newly changing neighborhood where Potomac Gardens is located, which was long rife with crime before it became "nice." I'm not saying that it's acceptable, I'm saying it's a fact of living in any urban community, especially with one with a history of violence, poverty, and crime. Maybe uncomfortable was a poor word choice, but consider the actual number of residents who have actually been robbed by gunpoint and those that just live in fear of this happening. It's a reality of living in a up-and-coming neighborhood. Now, why do I tutor these kids if I don't know if I'm making a difference? Because I can. And because I think it's the right thing to do. And because it is easy to take a few hours out of my week to spend time with these kids, who by the way, are impressively smart and perceptive. Because sometimes I think they are teaching me more about the world than I could ever teach them. Of course it makes me feel good to devote some time to help these kids, but I don't give up because it's frustrating and hard most of the time. And because at least I can say I'm trying to make a difference instead of standing back and doing nothing.

ThomasCircle

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:34:45 -0500

Condos for all!

vote4pedro

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:33:36 -0500

umm, drink anyone?

OldPosterKnownAsCranky

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:29:43 -0500

Um, getting the crap knocked out of you and/or being robbed at gunpoint is a bit more than making residents feel "uncomfortable." I'd be uncomfortable too if someone was waving a gun in my face or beating the crap out of me with a bat. But then again, I'm not as enlightened as some others on here. And here's a question for ustreetgirl: If you acknowledge that you don't know what you're doing is making any difference in the kid's life, then are you really doing anything positive? Are you actually benefiting that kid or the community at large or are you mainly making yourself feel better that you're "doing something"? Because if after all the tutoring the kid goes home and commits crimes, have you really done anything positive? Now, if the kid goes home and studies or avoids the local thugs, that's great. But based on your own words, it doesn't sound like you think that's happening.

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:27:50 -0500

This thread needs more rock throwing and white people who feel threatened. Actually, rock throwing improves any discussion, particularly the trendy restaurant reviews and the Week in Opera threads.

lrg

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:27:31 -0500

Ditto Ustreetgirl and "Anyone who suggests that "volunteering at community centers or school programs" will keep the delinquents off the street needs to cancel that lunchtime manicure at the Red Door Salon and come down from the Ivory Tower on Foxhall Road to visit the NE/SE quadrants on a school day sometime. Do you honestly believe that the _delinquents_ hanging out at Potomac Gardens (or the lovely Pentacle, for that matter) are going to class or even the basketball team at the rec center? No, my Ivory Tower Friend, these delinquents are the ones hanging out outside the schools and rec cen" It'd be nice to get a lunch break or to be able to afford to get a manicure,anywhere really, but I do work in schools in SE and NE: Anacostia, Eastern, and Dunbar, wanna come with sometime? And yes there are teens in these areas who could care les and are robbing eachother blind, but there are some that do care about their schools, neighborhoods, and communities, but I guess we should jsut stop these programs because they don't benefit every single resident of these areas?

fuckregistering

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:25:54 -0500

Make more affluent residents uncomfortable?! Getting robbed at gunpoint in a nice neighborhood is not called 'uncomfortable!'. I understand that the apartments have been there way before the neighborhood was nice, but now that it is nice, you either afford it and stay, or move out! That's Capitalism. There's a reason I had roommates for the last four years! There's a reason I don't drive a nice sportscar! I have sympathy for the ones that truly are trying to better themselves and raise a good family - everyone deserves to live peacefully and happily, but when crime comes from one area or one demographic, there's just no excuse for it and something needs to be done. Why should the 'uncomfortable' residents who earned their way into a nice neighborhood have to suffer at the hands of the ones living off the government?! By the way, I applaud you, ustreetgirl, and teachers and anyone trying to help kids. If only their parents paid that much attention to them...

ustreetgirl

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:13:44 -0500

Look, clearly the problems with housing projects, poverty, crime, racism, apathy, etc are more complex than I or anyone else has or can explain on a comment on DCist post. You can call me naive all you want, but at least I'm doing something positive for these kids instead of assuming they're all destined to be drug dealers, thugs, or in jail. And allowed to live in a newly developed area? Fuckregsitering, Potomac Gardens has been in that neighborhood long before it became "newly developed." Bottom line, it is pointless and insulting to the entire DC community to protest the existence of a housing project in a "newly developed" area because it makes the more affluent residents uncomfortable.

hillrat

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:11:21 -0500

ThomasCircle, your apparent sarcasm is actually one very real solution--as long as SOME (not all) residents get dibs on a handful of those condos, Har! Just about every property that gets developed in DC has some sort of "affordable" housing included in it. Inevitably, after construction has started and people have been displaced, the developer comes back with "affordable" housing that's only affordable to a family with a six figure income or simply says, "Ooops, the numbers don't work. Low income folks that we promised to take care of? No soup for you."

Captain Easychord

Fri, 16 May 2008 12:04:13 -0500

Yes, include the residents in the march. Forcing them to publicly denounce their neighbors couldn't possibly have any negative ramifications. sarcasm noted, but isn't that kind of the point here? if neighbors who would like to see a reduction in crime are pressured or intimidated (explicitly or implicitly) into not speaking up, wouldn't having someone else stand up for them to help identify, isolate and eliminate (via the judicial system or through some sort of rehabilitation) the criminal elements be a wise thing to do? ... or is it that no matter who does it, standing up against violence and denouncing crime is going to cause conflict, strife and problems?

BikeDC101

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:59:49 -0500

ThomasCircle, your apparent sarcasm is actually one very real solution--as long as SOME (not all) residents get dibs on a handful of those condos, and displaced residents get dibs on decent, quality housing elsewhere, as WHAZZUP suggests in a prior post. Even the most sympathetic among us has to agree that the idea of filling ugly, fenced off isolated buildings with impoverished people (or anything or anyone, IMHO) of any walk of life is a horrible idea no matter how you look at it. On the other hand, the opposite--quality inclusion of residents in poverty in neighborhoods _throughout_ the city--has been a relative great success on all fronts, even here in our own fair District, even only blocks away from Potomac Gardens. I hope we can all agree that it is in everyone's interest, especially law abiding residents of these projects, for Potomac Gardens, and similar projects elsewhere, to be demolished AND all of its residents get relocated to _normal, quality_ housing throughout the city, and NEVER in large concentrations the way they are now.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:59:07 -0500

and my latte

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:58:46 -0500

No, march to and through the project. The people living their perform their crimes in the neighborhoods; it is now time to take back the streets and march into their living rooms. I say we burn down PG and build a luxury condo in it's place! I'll go grab my torch...

fuckregistering

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:57:25 -0500

hey ustreetgirl, shame on you for being so naive! If you can get through and help kids, I'm all for it. But acting like it's ok because these kids 'know no better' is ridiculous. If they and their 'families' go to jail for committing crimes, I'll bet they'll learn real quick. Regardless, why should they be allowed to live in a newly developed area simply because they don't earn enough? Know what I think is crappy? That they get to live in such a nice area so cheaply, but don't do anything to contribute to the area. I'm not saying everyone there is the problem, but that complex is definitely the source of the problems.

lobster

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:54:10 -0500

I live across the street from PG. Please don't start a war on my doorstep. TYIA.

monkeyrotica

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:52:08 -0500

I must have missed it. What's this villagers-versus-Frankenstein's monster march supposed to accomplish anyway? Are a bunch of honkeys really going to scare away the big bad criminals? Seems like this would end up like some Take Back the Night rally (complete with talking points, action items, and breakout groups) where everyone feels empowered and nothing actually happens. What they need to do is bring the Fruit of Islam in, like they did in the Columbia Heights projects, and have them beat the living s**t out of the dealers with baseball bats. They came back after a few months, but that's all you really need to get through the Summer months. And I count 101 words in "S&P"'s little screed. How much you wanna bet this guy's a lawyer? Lawyers effing LOVE pissing and moaning on listservs. He'd be better off suing Potomac Gardens for violating his civil rights. And losing his pants. Tell you what, S&P, I'll march on Potomac Gardens when you finish diagramming that stream of verbal diarrhea you call a sentence. They're called "periods." They're your friends.

ustreetgirl

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:51:52 -0500

You know, I tutor kids who live in Potomac Gardens (younger, ages 9-14) and this really enrages me. The problem isn't with these kids (who are resorting to crime because their parents themselves are in jail, on drugs, are dead, or are absent in some way), but with the system. Do you know much these families need to make to qualify for housing in Potomac Gardens? $7,000 a year. The whole family. Neighbors in Capitol Hill should be working to make the lives of these kids better by volunteering in the community, not protesting the fact that these kids are resorting to crime because they know no better. I, for one hope that I can make a tiny difference on one of the Potomac Garden kids I tutor by being a positive role model and showing them that there is an alternative. I don't know if I'm making a difference at all in their lives, but at least I'm doing something positive and proactive instead of something negative like protesting the existence of a housing project. Shame on these residents.

badtzmaru

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:46:30 -0500

Marching on a project? That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. How about marching to the police station instead, along with residents of the Gardens? I live in Hill East and I can't believe some of my neighbors are that stupid. I'm not surprised this idea surfaced on a listserv.

fuckregistering

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:46:09 -0500

How 'bout you hold the 'parents' responsible for the actions of their children?? What do you expect when you let your kids do literally whatever they want until whatever time they want. Give me a break! I could care less about how or why they're there. The fact is, they're committing crimes and deserve to be punished. Want to get to the root of the problem? Don't allow people who aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves have children!

registrationsucks

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:41:34 -0500

You can't move to the ghetto and complain about the ghetto being ghetto.

Carl3000

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:40:38 -0500

Yes, include the residents in the march. Forcing them to publicly denounce their neighbors couldn't possibly have any negative ramifications. I have to say, I expected a totally hilarious argument to ensue as soon as I read the first sentence of this post and you wildly exceeded by expectations.

ThomasCircle

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:36:06 -0500

Why dont we tear down Potomac Gardens and build a new condo project?

yikes

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:33:15 -0500

"There is, of course, a direct correlation between poverty and crime" Not trying to be contradictory, just curious -- has anyone really studied this? What are the rates at which "white collar" crime is committed, and who are the perpetrators? What do crime rates look like in poor, rural communities? Is this just an urban issue?

DC1

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:32:41 -0500

If you get the crimemaps reports from the DCPD you would see less hyperbole and a more predictable pattern of crime -- a fair amount of property crime, much of it vehicular burglarly, clustered primarily near commercial corridors like 8th St. SE and H St. NE, and spreading intermittently from the Dome to RFK. Robberies and assault are real concerns, but not at the alarming levels some posters would suggest (at least not in Hill East). That's no comfort to genuine victims . . . or pitchfork weilders. The race baiting and PC culture war slants are both pretty tired.

BikeDC101

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:32:06 -0500

Le Corbusier's idea of cramming tons of people, poor or not, into ugly characterless projects fenced off from the rest of life is generally accepted as failure in the fields of architecture and the social sciences, particularly for the poor or disenfranchised. It seemed like a cheap way of handling social ills that did not work and was not cheap after all. The best thing anyone can do is to disperse the Potomac Garden residents throughout D.C.--including Wards 1 and 2--and demolish the social experiment they are living. Most cities that have done that--including D.C.--have seen significant turnaround in neighborhoods and the contentedness of residents receiving assistance where they have integrated, instead of isolated, poor residents throughout neighborhoods. Separately, the New Hill East posting quoted in DCist did not seem to exclude law-abiding residents of Potomac Gardens from any march, as I read it. If anything, it seemed like a call to demonstrate to the law abiding residents there that the greater community supports them and has been roused to rout out the bad apples making all of our lives miserable. A show of greater community support is especially necessary to overcome the no-snitch mentality that predominates in projects like Potomac Gardens (and the Pentacle and Sursum Corda). For law abiding people, the no-snitch code is based on fear more than anything. A show of solidarity is a first step in bridging the divide. Anyone who suggests that "volunteering at community centers or school programs" will keep the delinquents off the street needs to cancel that lunchtime manicure at the Red Door Salon and come down from the Ivory Tower on Foxhall Road to visit the NE/SE quadrants on a school day sometime. Do you honestly believe that the _delinquents_ hanging out at Potomac Gardens (or the lovely Pentacle, for that matter) are going to class or even the basketball team at the rec center? No, my Ivory Tower Friend, these delinquents are the ones hanging out outside the schools and rec centers victimizing the other kids when they come out of their structured activities. It's true. On a school day, watch the kids coming out of _school_ run to the Eastern Market metro in fear from the kids at Potomac Gardens (who either have early dismissal every day or never went to school). It's a quaint idea for the suburbs, but the delinquents we are talking about at Potomac Gardens, the Pentacle and elsewhere are far beyond the reach of the after school volunteer. With these delinquents, you are fighting a dozen years of street education that requires serious, long-term intervention by courts, family services, city services and a positive greater community. These delinquents need to be extricated from their negative environment and exposed to a positive environment, which many have never seen (example: it's shocking to find how many of those kids have never even been to the Smithsonian or even the Capitol, even though they are only a few blocks away). That is beyond any one person's or group's ability to achieve, and is a significant reason why Chancellor Rhee's idea of bringing the entire cadre of city services to the table for children who are having trouble in school (or not showing up to school) is so fantastic. Hopefully, she is able to follow through. The idea of marching through Potomac Gardens and similar projects is great--the delinquents and criminals have marched through our neighborhoods and "owned" the bulk of D.C. for too long. Take our city back.

vote4pedro

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:31:31 -0500

Settle down, children. All panties don't have to come in wads.

WHAZZUP

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:30:18 -0500

Also, let's not forget what a clusterfuck housing projects are and their history. Whomever thought it would be a good idea to just create massive concentrations of poverty deserves a swift kick to the dick. I would like to see a massive investment in the HOPE VI program to help accelerate dismantling these places, while providing quality housing in mixed-income developments for the existing residents. Wait, again, sorry, that requires an investment of time, money, and emotion, and we just can't have that.

dcist20009

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:27:20 -0500

If there is a march on Potomac Gardens, there will be hell to pay after. Do you think that the parents who are indifferent to their violent children’s activities will somehow change because of a march? It’s much more likely that they will be looking to put the marchers in their place and show who is boss. That can only make the neighborhood more dangerous in the long run.

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:25:15 -0500

"And poor people looooooove crime. It's the only thing that gets them out of bed in the afternoon, frankly." There is, of course, a direct correlation between poverty and crime, even though of course we like to pretend that there isn't, for fear of hurting someone's feelings or losing political support (sadly, this pretense hurts the poor more than anyone else). That's not the same as saying all poor people commit crime, which I don't think anyone here is saying.

yonas

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:24:35 -0500

@dc4life: I see your argument and respect your point of view. But your point of view has been argued for many, many, many years. Just saying "get an education and a job" and absolving yourself from being a proactive part of a solution doesn't work. I mean, I don't have a Ph.D. in Sociology or anything, but any type of positive outcome involves a strong understanding of psychology and the ability to discern the true problem (which may not always be easy to see) versus one that may be obvious, but wrong. The sad truth is that some things just don't have solutions, but in order to architect something that works, people have to stick together and think with their progressive, evolved, highly-efficient minds; NOT their emotions.

OldPosterKnownAsCranky

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:24:31 -0500

Seems like the easiest solution to avoid listserve hostility is to bring in Potomac Gardens residents who are also fed up with their criminal neighbors. I doubt the law-abiding neighbors enjoy living in a place with criminal youngsters running around making life miserable for everyone. But I agree with some of the posters above that the tolerance of these kids' dangerous, criminal and predatory behavior because they are growing up poor, or because they don't have a father figure, or because they're auntie's house was sold to someone is patently ridiculous. It's that sort of patronizing attitude that results in pathetic juvenile crime laws. We're dumbing down deviancy so that it's simply an alternative way of life, rather than a violation of societal norms. I'm sure someone will say what those kids needs is a rec center, or midnight basketball, or trebuchet building competitions (er, on second thought, scratch that last idea). Baloney! What those kids need is an understanding that their criminal actions will have consequences. Whether that means actual jail time, or their parents/guardians being kicked out of public housing, or something else, I don't know. But simply writing off this kind of criminal behavior has not worked for the past several decades.

hillrat

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:23:21 -0500

BUT, you must involve the law-abiding citizens of PG that are just as fed up with the crime in any proactive efforts to stop the crime on the streets. What about, I don't know, organizing with residents of the project, to try and work together to reduce the crime and improve neighborhood relations? Well it seems like at least a couple of us are in agreement that any lasting, long-term solution must include the residents of PG that are just as sick of crime as the rest of us.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:18:20 -0500

You can just feel good knowing that their are programs available to help these poor children and that they will be out stealing more cars later that afternoon.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:16:06 -0500

Make all the apologies you want, but don't get upset when your car is stolen and taken for a joy-ride by kiddie car thieves and when the police find your car wrapped around a tree in Fort Dupont Park.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:13:52 -0500

I grew up in poor white area that didn't have a strong economy like DC has. My parents worked hard and provided for their family. They didn't even have a high school education. I have no sympathy for people that DECIDE to live off of my tax dollars.

Andrew Wiseman

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:13:25 -0500

To me, it seems like people with problems with PG would be better off taking them to DCHA, the council, and the mayor, rather than marching around.

lukfarang

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:11:28 -0500

"Sorry, that requires hard work and a lasting commitment to dealing with ongoing issues of race and class, what was I thinking?" You must not have received the memo that clearly states that all poor people earned it through laziness, stupidity, or some other form of inferiority! And poor people looooooove crime. It's the only thing that gets them out of bed in the afternoon, frankly. That was sarcasm, for anyone who may stop by and actually agree with that statement...

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:09:06 -0500

Hillman summed it up right. DC has plenty of programs available but yet, our violent crime rates are up. There is so many programs available to DC youths. They can attend college in other states and still pay instate tuition. That is a priviledge and only given to DC residents. This isn't a black or white issue. It is an issue of common decency. Stop having babies when you're still a baby; get an education first; then get a job working in the new knowledge based economy.

yonas

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:07:48 -0500

I agree with lukfarang and MrTinDC. I totally understand the frustration that the area residents are experiencing. Being robbed and stolen from is extremely stressful and traumatizing. BUT, you must involve the law-abiding citizens of PG that are just as fed up with the crime in any proactive efforts to stop the crime on the streets.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:06:16 -0500

What does race have to do with it???

lrg

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:03:17 -0500

Thank you WHAZZUP :)

Nate

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:03:08 -0500

There really needs to be a version of Godwin's Law related to the citation of "my hard earned tax dollars."

WHAZZUP

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:02:28 -0500

Also, in the name of having this not turn into an all-out race riot, could we all all PLEASE agree to just ignore everything that dc4life says?

SCL

Fri, 16 May 2008 11:00:04 -0500

While I question the efficacy of marching on these housing projects, the apologetic tone of the last response made me roll my eyes. I'm not saying these kids don't deserve to feel some level of frustration about yuppies and such displacing them, but holding them to a lower standard because of a stressful life is wrong any which way you look at it. This kid just beat the crap out of me and stole my wallet, but it's OK because he's grown up traumatized...Come on people! The bottom line is, well....I don't see this going anywhere. The real issue at hand is juvenile crime laws. Until these kids fear repercussions, it's just a vicious cycle. Gentrification and displacement of poorer residents is a fact of life. While I lament the negative consequences of such a process, it's a fact of life in a free market. Juvenile crime laws in this city are a freakin' joke. The fact that people are growing to fear kids more than adults is almost funny.

WHAZZUP

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:59:40 -0500

Wow. Just... Wow. While I certainly disagree with the horrible mentality displayed by S & P and his apologists, I also think it's absurd to say that this shit is somehow justified by the economy or whatever. What about, I don't know, organizing with residents of the project, to try and work together to reduce the crime and improve neighborhood relations? Sorry, that requires hard work and a lasting commitment to dealing with ongoing issues of race and class, what was I thinking?

rob

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:59:03 -0500

Oh shit, SE is gonna burn. I feel (relatively) safe in the neighborhood (I live 2 blocks SE of PG), but I probably won't if this march goes down. just joined the listserv. thanks martin.

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:57:46 -0500

"Instead of whining about your tax dollars and the "future jailbirds" and marching why don't you do something more effective like volunteering at community centers or school programs that keep these kids off the streets?" That's been done ad nauseum for decades in DC (Capitol Hill is home to countless granola crunchy folks that have spent years participating in every type of volunteer program you can dream up). Sure, it has some positive impact, and that's great.... every little bit helps..., but our policy of providing public housing as breeding grounds for crime has a much stronger negative impact that all the midnight basketball in the world won't solve. For many, midnight basketball and all the volunteer programs in the world simply can't compete with the lure of sitting on your ass all day, then eventually joining the thug culture, first in appearance only, then in reality.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:57:03 -0500

Irq, I'm not volunteering one minute of my time. Their parents should raise them right. That's what mine did and I didn't have parks, playgrounds, community centers, or anything when I was growing up.

hillrat

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:56:46 -0500

Interesting post Martin. I would theorize that perhaps a way to eliminate some of the race/class tension from any kind of march on PG is to redefine "us" and "them." The definition of "us" has to include all of the law-abiding residents of PG. But to successfully redefine "us" means that you have to convince those law-abiding residents that there are more of "us" even within the confines of PG, than there are of "them" which is no easy task.

Hillman

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:52:54 -0500

"Why would anyone DECIDE to live in the projects if they had other options?" Because it's way easier to live on the cheap if someone else is paying for it? And, let's face it, not having to go to work like the rest of us is quite the perk. I was robbed at gunpoint by residents of Potomac Gardens. The cops involved were quite frank when they described Potomac Gardens as the source of a crapload of crime in the entire area. As for job opportunities for those there, all you have to do is drive to the swank new Harris Teeter a block or two from this complex, then drive by Potomac Gardens. In the Harris Teeter you see a lot of DC residents trying very hard to hold down a job and better themselves. But as you drive by Potomac Gardens, in the middle of the day, you see dozens of what appear to be able-bodied young men, doing nothing on the stoops. Are we to believe they are all working the night shift? More likely is most are working the night shift all right - the night shift being comprised mostly of breaking into cars and housings, mugging people, etc. The shame of it is, these parasites make life very difficult for the decent residents of Potomac Gardens.

lrg

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:51:30 -0500

Instead of whining about your tax dollars and the "future jailbirds" and marching why don't you do something more effective like volunteering at community centers or school programs that keep these kids off the streets?

ThomasCircle

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:46:07 -0500

I say march on and take a stand. Seriously my hard earned tax dollars are going to provide shelter for these future jailbirds?? Puhlease, why should I pay for their public housing and then their incarceration when they turn 18?

lrg

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:45:19 -0500

dc4life: "Those people decided." Excuse me, maybe you should take your over privileged arse and follow some of those people around for a day or two and then see what you have to say. Why would anyone DECIDE to live in the projects if they had other options?

MrTinDC

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:45:15 -0500

A better way would have been to invite both the aggrieved neighbors/crime victims AS WELL AS the law-abiding residents of Potomac Garden in a joint march for better security and lighting around the property.

lukfarang

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:40:19 -0500

It's kind of appalling how the original proponent of this march completely fails to recognize that there are probably people living that housing project who are just as fed up with crime as he is (not assuming male, just generic descriptor) and fit more into his "us" category than he thinks. But no, because they live in a housing project, they must be a "them." Instead of looking at ways to bring together citizens with a common goal regardless of their housing status, he'd rather play elitist. What an ass.

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:39:19 -0500

And please, most of those people living off of section 8 have been doing so their whole lives. Even when housing was cheap those people decided to live off of others. I have no sympathy for them.

rabo k

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:33:19 -0500

Don't forget your torches!

dc4life

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:24:54 -0500

I don't live there but I would be more than willing to march in this protest. My tax dollars support project residents, and therefore, they should at least raise their children to not mug or perform other various crimes against the people that allow them to have shelter, food, and other city services.

Martin Austermuhle

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:22:08 -0500

The NewHillEast Yahoo! listserv.

hillrat

Fri, 16 May 2008 10:17:25 -0500

Where was this stuff posted originally?