but the shell no! website—damn, that's slick!

it's all splitting hairs though, hillman. parking spaces would be lost. they're going to exaggerate to make it sound better for them, sure, but the fact is that there will be public space taken away for this. in addition, this just isn't the best and highest use for this land.

are the gas stations nearby full 24/7? is there such demand there that there must be another station? doubt it, wholeheartedly.

So, WTF do they need a gas station on H Street for anyway? There's at least FIVE on Bladensburg and I don't know how many near Florida and NY. In all the neighborhood meetings I've been unfortunate enough to attend, nobody ever stands up and shouts, "When are we going to get a gas station?" Not even the crazy old guy who's been in the neighborhood since it was known as "Poottown," back when the old Acme Rendering Plant sat between the Washington Pulp Mill and the old Dye-dee Diaper Service cleaning plant. Right there in the stinky things district. Now all the goddamned yuppies move in with their hammock shops and $9 coffee shops where they don't even let you put ice in it without going all apes**t.

downtown rez got it right. Urban neighborhoods should be geared towards residents needs, and they need walkable communities and things worth walking to. Nobody walks to a gas station. Hell, back in the day we had to run, RUN, to the Esso Station to collect our Depression glass premium what they gave out with every full tank. Gas was a nickel a gallon back then, Old Glory had 38 stars, and the old Cord used to get 50 rods to the hogshead and that's how we liked it! Nowdays, robots are stealing my luggage and giving me full body cavity searches at the airport just because I made threatening calls to Eleanor Roosevelt.

That's just neighborhood politics in action. Everybody exaggerates when it comes to things like property rights. Bulding additions to your house or adding a deck is always couched in terms of "adding value" to the neighborhood, instead of building a goddamned frat party house where people pee/vomit off the roof into the neighbor's flowering arbutus. Restaurant owners are always trying to add capacity and extend hours and turn themselves into nightclubs, but the zoning permits in the window always says nondescript crap like "supper club" and "live entertainment" and "adding foot traffic" instead of "gogo thug loiterville" or "gangsta s**thole." And what about those pills that are supposed to "add three terrifying inches to your wang?" I can barely manage one-and-a-half inches, but you don't see me complaining, mostly because the blood rushing from my head causes me to lose consciousness and bang my head on the coffee table.

MARC service disruption between New Carrollton and Union Station due to police activitu.

"Since when does this landowner have "personal property rights" to public space?"

Since forever in DC. It's common practice for businesses (and residents) in DC to use the public space in front of their property.

Nearly every single outdoor dining patio in the city is on public space.

And according to the Shell No folks, they'd be in favor of using the public space if the business in question were a restaurant or cute little garden shop.

To me that's a double standard.

Some of their other arguments are double standards as well.

They repeatedly claim that gas stations are magnets for crime, loitering, etc.

Crime is rampant throughout this area. Small time thugs often hang out around banks, for instance. Yet I don't see anyone arguing that we can't have banks.

And panhandlers often target outdoor dining areas. Again, I don't see anyone arguing that we can't have those.

"but why oh why can't you admit the obvious—a gas station would not be the best use for this prominent corner. something that will tie in with the urban fabric of the neighborhood would make more sense there. can you agree with that?"

I never argued for the gas station. I'd much prefer a restaurant or other business there, from a strictly selfish point of view.

But I don't own that property, and at the end of the day it's not my decision. I don't think my individual preference, barring any actual real argument of harm, is strong enough for me to try to cost this property owner his income.

I simply can't stand when people have double standards - one for businesses they like, one for those that they don't.

Owning property in DC can be a huge gamble. That's why when we go telling businessmen what they can and can't do with their property our arguments need to be totally fair and reasonable, and should be undertaken only when necessary. In my book, simply preferring a cute garden center over a gas station isn't grounds for restricting someone's use of their property AFTER they bought the property.

Ironically, I do think that at least part of this situation even exists because of the crap that DC residents often foist on business owners in DC.

The residents currently say they'd love a restaurant with outdoor dining there.

But the actual real track record in DC is that residents often fight restaurant liquor licenses, and they often bitch incessantly about outdoor dining specifically.

Given that track record, I hardly blame a property owner for going for the long term stability of a gas station lease over the inherently troublesome restaurant use.

"not gasoline for commuters coming in from PG county"

Indeed - if you watch the traffic coming inbound on Maryland Ave in the morning, 99% of the cars have MD tags. It has turned into a major commuter route and a gas station would be capitalizing on that fact.

And Hillman, there are definitely at least two gas stations one block away from that block - one at 14th and Florida and another at Bladensburg and Morse. I don't know about the third...but certainly, there needn't be another.

I don't necessarily like the slant of the Shell No site, but I'm with IMGoph - a gas station certainly isn't the best use for that spot.

"The residents currently say they'd love a restaurant with outdoor dining there.

But the actual real track record in DC is that residents often fight restaurant liquor licenses, and they often bitch incessantly about outdoor dining specifically."

These aren't necessarily the same people. It shouldn't have to be pointed out that DC residents are not a monolithic bloc and that some very vocal minorities usually control the debate.

"Well, public space belongs to the public. If the public wants to turn down Shell out of the hope that they can attract Garden District East or Junkpunchers Beta into that space instead, I should think that's their call."

At least that's a stronger argument than the 'they attract crime' mantra.

But if we are going to start dictating public space use based on neighbors' preference as the determining factor, I suppose you'd be comfortable with your neighbors telling you you can't use your front yard as you see fit, in hopes that they can force you into doing something to it that they like more?

To be consistent in your argument you need to be willing to give your neighbors veto power over anything you do in your front yard.

It shouldn't have to be pointed out that DC residents are not a monolithic bloc and that some very vocal minorities usually control the debate.

Like people who hate on gas stations?

I kid! I kid! I love gas stations! It's getting harder to find places that carry a decent array of pina colada blunts, Rap Snacks, and Bahama Mama Pickeled Sausages.

To be consistent in your argument you need to be willing to give your neighbors veto power over anything you do in your front yard.

Not "anything," no. Under the Parking Act, I have certain exclusive of-right uses of the public space between the roadway and my property. I can put in grass and flowers and a zen rock garden, I can lounge on a chaise longue with a bottle of IBC root beer and a copy of Godel Escher Bach, I can yell at kids to get off of my lawn. But there are some things I have no right to do, like pave it over and use it as a driveway. For that, I would need to get approval, just like the gas station owner needs to get approval in this case.

Cminus:

True, the uses aren't unlimited. No land use is.

But they aren't arguing that the space can't be used. They are arguing it can't be used because they don't like a gas station, but that it could be used if, say, the owner gave in and put in a restaurant or garden center.

I fail to see the difference between curb cuts and parking spaces for a gas station and curb cuts and parking spaces for a cutesy garden center.

It's the content-specificity that I have a problem with.

That's pretty much exactly like saying you as a neighbor can only plant bushes in your front yard if I approve of what your overall use of your property is, and since I don't like the fact that you have, say, ugly noisy children, then I can veto what you do with your front yard until you get rid of the kids.

The Shell No folks would have had a much stronger argument if they'd relied on the argument that MD Avenue is primarily residential (at least heading West) and that this gas station would be a traffic/safety hazard. You know, the old, 'protect the children' chestnut.

And I'm not saying their other arguments don't have merit.

I'm just saying the crime and public space use issues are weak and are being applied selectively and unfairly to this property.

They are arguing it can't be used because they don't like a gas station, but that it could be used if, say, the owner gave in and put in a restaurant or garden center.

Can't they just compromise and open a Wawa what serves sammitches? Better yet, have Fragers open a satellite store where you can also get a great bowl of snakehead and abalone soup. You're killing, like, five birds with one stone here. Or snakeheads. Or something.

Hillman:

I would subject any proposal from a third party to use property I owned to a cost-benefit analysis. And cost-benefit analyses can't be content-neutral, since the content itself can be a cost or a benefit. I'll rent out studio space for a lower price to Ye Olde Twee Claymonger's than I would to Gorgoroth, since I value not being woken up by renditions of Ein Eim av Blod og Helvetesild in the middle of the night.

Why shouldn't I take the same into account when asked whether I approve of the non-of-right use of nearby public space? I'd think it was perfectly legitimate if it was used against me. (Bear in mind, we're not talking something specious like "your kids are ugly," since ugly kids are of-right since Mendelson got his "Alibi for Kids Declared Ugly by their Mommas" bill passed. We're talking things like paving over the lawn.) I would expect my neighbors to be more supportive of a proposal to put a driveway on my front lawn if the purpose was to roll my Ferrari 250 California Spider up to a secure display area than if I wanted space to tinker with some undriveable hoopty. Like, say, a 612 Scaglietti Sessanta.

CMinus:

I have to say I'm losing interest here. It's become sortof esoteric.

But in closing (ok, let's admit it, I'm never actually completely done), it's worth noting that apparently that location was a gas station for years, prior to the mid-90s (according to the gas station developers). So it's not like this is a brand new use.

And somehow U Street, Georgetown, Pennsylvania Ave SE, and other locations manage to survive with, gasp, gas stations on their main 'historic' strips. But somehow delicate H Street can't?

The fact that the site has been a gas station for a long time probably limits it's developability as something other than a gas station. There was (still is?) a former gas station site on 14th Street NW that was a gutted hulk for years. They eventually found out that since the site had been leaking petroleum and other toxins since the 1950s, it was pretty much an EPA Superfund site. When the current owners found out how much it would cost to clean it up to Federal standards, they declared bankruptcy. They couldn't pay to clean the site, let alone build anything habitable/workable on it.

Then again, maybe Gordon Ramsey should get into the burgeoning field of PCB-laced designer cupcakes.

"Then again, maybe Gordon Ramsey should get into the burgeoning field of PCB-laced designer cupcakes. "

Baby, that ship done sailed. How else do you explain Carol Schwartz's existence, waistline, and wardrobe?

"just that they're within their rights."

You are probably right.

"and, as has been noted, this isn't EXACTLY on H street, it's off a block. there're already two gas stations off one block in the other direction, so it's not like the neighborhood isn't being served."

Good point. And by most accounts both of those stations apparently suck, as the neighbors constantly remind us.

Maybe a new Shell station would drive those two out of business, and it'd be a net win for the whole area.

And for a while there weren't there several Bank of America's within a few blocks of each other on H? I didn't see neighbors arguing that they had the right to tell Bank of America that that was just too many and that they had to close one down.

I'd point out that if the neighbors successfully block this gas station then they need to never ever complain about the conditions at all other gas stations in the area, what with the neighbors going out of their way to kill off any new competition and making sure the crappy status quo is preserved.

But somehow I don't see that happening.

Frozen Tropics posted an excellent letter from a gas station owner highlighting both the pros and cons of operating a gas station in DC. Really interesting read. I can't fathom why anyone would actually want to invest that kind of money and effort into such a venture.

"Probably because it's a front for the Ethiopian mafia operating in D.C., to which Hillman is connected."

Are you kidding with that stupidity?

when all the horn of africa countries realize that when they combine, they'll have the power of 10 voltrons, then we'll be in trouble. the ethiopian/eritrean/somalian/djboutian mafia will be all-powerful

Just a matter of time before the Indian betel nut traffikers move in on the khat and tej gangs. Then all hell will break loose. The streets will be covered with red saliva and perfumed with cumin. You heard it here first. Maybe!

i can't believe that khat (qat) isn't more common around here.

'cause i see a hell of a lot more pot smoking in broad daylight all over my neighborhood than i do qat chewing...