DCist: Transit on Thursday: The Case for Streetcars Edition

IMGoph

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:21:07 -0500

thanks for giving me a relevant and local example, reid.

Reid

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:29:36 -0500

"and one of them is that the transportation agency running the line can't up and move it elsewhere on a whim." Point in fact, DDOT has already moved around the Circulator route a few times. It used to come into Georgetown along K and the turn up Wisconsin and then right on M. Now it goes down M and up Wisconsin all the way to Whitehaven. DDOT proposed going back to the old route, but upper-Georgetown complained enough to secure the northerly route. I suspect it was a bit of retaliation when DDOT cut half the stops along Wisconsin.

IMGoph

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:01:02 -0500

massysett: you're wrong on a few counts. first of all, there's no "technology is out of date" argument here. the newest, most up-to-date streetcars are clean, quiet, spacious, and comfortable modes of transport. the basics of the internal combustion engine's design are over 100 years old. are you going to tell me that's outdated technology? i can think of reasons to try to get people out of cars, but that would be a pretty damn weak one. second of all, the circulator's route is not fixed. if DDOT wants to move it from K street to L street tomorrow, they could do that. there are multiple benefits to having a fixed rail line, and one of them is that the transportation agency running the line can't up and move it elsewhere on a whim. businesses will feel more comfortable investing along a rail line because they know that's a long-term investment and it isn't going to move. if i buy a building along a bus line, and the move the bus line, i'm screwed for a large part of my foot traffic. on a rail line, i have guaranteed eyes on my display case out front.

massysett

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:42:29 -0500

X2. The X2 already goes down H Street. A streetcar is a bus on tracks. What's so great about that? Someone mentioned "fixed route." Paint the bus to indicate its route. Circulator has a fixed route. The streetcar fixation is nothing more than romance with an outdated technology.

monkeyrotica

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:06:03 -0500

If you thought Metro train drivers were unintelligible, just wait until you get on a streetcar run by a morlock. It's like they're screaming in Esperanto with their mouth full of marbles. Ironically, the morlock phrase for "out of service" is the same as for "banana pudding," leading to more than a few awkward moments at the Sizzler buffet line.

IMGoph

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:05:20 -0500

aaron: thanks for the update then. like you said, the feasibility of such a switch today is questionable, but at least we know it's possible.

Reid

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:55:11 -0500

Imgoph: "and there aren't hundreds of them criss-crossing the streets." I've only seen Boston and San Frans. Boston's and some of San Fran's are unobtrusive. However, some of San Fran's really do look like mid-century Tokyo. But it is my understanding that those spider web wires are only for the electric buses, which need to have both a positive and negative connection (and thus more wires). But I'm not sure. Johnny: "Among the legacy of the street cars is the underpasses on Conn. Ave" Actually, I'm not sure that's correct. The traffic bypass is not the same tunnel as the streetcar tunnel. The streetcar tunnel went (actually, still goes) around the circumference of the circle (from my Embassy Row walking tour I learned that the fact that it goes around the west side of the circle is the work of a rich homeowner on the right side, but who knows if that's really true). I think the underpass and the streetcar tunnel existed simultaneously and didn't intersect. And I am also totally in the tank for streetcars, but I will admit that it's not really possible to compare the construction costs of the initial system with the (hopefully) future system. For one, they were born by private companies, not the city. And secondly, they were subsidized by the fact that the streetcar companies frequently owned the power plants and made a profit on selling energy. If we can rebuild even half of the old system, it will represent a much bigger feat than the first generation was.

Johnny Dollar

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:38:34 -0500

DC had the most extensive street car system in the country from the 1890s through 1962, when Congress forced the city to abandon it for busses. (couldn't imagine that GM, the highway lobby, etc. had anything to do with that). Every numbered bus line is a legacy of street cars...the 42 in Mt Pleasant, 30s across town, 50s down 14th street, etc. All of the in DC lines used underground conduits, and the trolleys were pretty damn efficient. Among the legacy of the street cars is the underpasses on Conn. Ave and Mass Ave to avoid the circles and a lot of the turnarounds (14th and CO, etc.) So, DC has had street cars before and could do it again. Also, my understanding from Portland and other cities is that while the upfront cost is much greater vs busses, the ridership is often higher, maintenance less and fuel less expensive, so there are plusses to street cars. Finally, if you look at cities as diverse as Portland, OR, Seattle, Denver, SF and even Dallas, the street cars are great for commuters and tourists -- bringing people off the main drag and into neighborhoods to spend their cash. It would not be bad for the city to have people spend some dollars in Adams Morgan, Columbia Heights or H Street and even Anacostia around MLK Blvd or the AA Heritage Museum instead of staying safely (and boringly) downtown).... Not that i am in the tank for street cars or anything!

Aaron Morrissey

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:36:31 -0500

Goph: DC did used to switch between overhead wires and third rails, at least according to Wikipedia: ...in Washington, D.C., local ordinances required electrified street railways to draw current from a third rail and return the current to a fourth rail, both installed in a continuous vault underneath the street and accessed by means of a collector that passed through a slot between the running rails. When streetcars on such systems entered territory where overhead lines were allowed, they stopped over a pit where a man detached the collector (plow) and the motorman placed a trolley pole on the overhead. So, switching of power sources has been done. Whether or not it makes sense here, now that's a good question.

IMGoph

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:34:30 -0500

i have now been in four different cities in the past month and a half where overhead wires power buses or streetcars (tunis, rome, philly, and boston). they are not a distraction, and they aren't an eyesore. i don't know why the hell this "ban" exists, because it's patently ridiculous. these wires are much thinner than the usual wires you see (i'm assuming because they're not covered in thick insulation), and there aren't hundreds of them criss-crossing the streets. i understand not wanting to see cable, powerlines, phone lines, etc. going willy-nilly up in the air. but making an exception for one class of cable doesn't seem like a big deal to me. they tyranny of the NCPC is crazy. how can a group of appointed, unelected pencil pushers have control over an entire city. it isn't fair and shouldn't be...

IMGoph

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:30:39 -0500

reid: h street is certainly in the "old washington zone". it's all part of the l'enfant city plan, so it's covered. now, the part over the river to the minnesota avenue station, that's debatable, because benning road is the border between the old city and what lies beyond. but, i doubt they would switch from overhead to underground power supply in the middle of a line.

Mainland

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:04:26 -0500

Yea, following up... VRE has been accepting a stream of new cars for the past few months. Selling these to MARC should not result in a net decrease in capacity since they've gotten more in the past 3 months than the 13 they're selling. For MARC it's win-win since they need the extra capacity badly and don't have any orders on the books for new cars. It's going to take about 2 months to get them all out and running for MARC though...

RJ

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:42:11 -0500

Bordeaux Underground Conduit Street Car = Fail The technology is just not there yet and won't be cheap enough for some time. It is either overhead wires of internal combustion.

OldPosterKnownAsCranky

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:15:29 -0500

Underground tunnel carts with Morlock drivers! Maybe!

downtown rez

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:03:09 -0500

Streetcars with underground conduit, please.

Mainland

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:59:33 -0500

I'm pretty sure VRE has new passenger cars to be delivered, and that this arrangement between them and MARC for the cars was agreed to months ago before the recent spike in riders.

Shayan

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:50:01 -0500

VRE sold the trains to MARC? Does that mean there will be less trains running on the VRE routes? Wasn't VRE already running at capacity?

Mainland

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:48:28 -0500

Most of the Baltimore light rail was built on abandoned railway right-of-way, which helped make it dirt cheap to build. (Even then...they didn't do it right and double track the whole thing until a couple of years ago...) DC doesn't have that same luxury, save for the old CSX railway in Anacostia the city wanted to use but was told otherwise.

monkeyrotica

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:37:38 -0500

The primary concern with undergound power conduits is that use of street salt during the winter months wreaks havoc on the equipment, corroding connections and causing power surges and losses. There's also the concern that some dumbass will stick a crowbar in the third rail, fry themselves, and the family will sue the City for $100 zillion dollars for not including warnings stating "Sticking crowbars in the third rail will result in you frying yourself, dumbass" in five languages including Braille. Considering the death toll associated with open-topped doubledecker bus surfing, this is a serious matter. Maybe!

Boomhauer

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:35:58 -0500

You want to see light rail/streetcars, look at Baltimore. System is easy to use and dirt cheap. DC shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel on these things.

Reid

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:35:56 -0500

"do you think that allowing overhead wires would kill the "feeling" on H Street?" Is H St. covered by the overhead ban? I'm not 100% positive that it is in the "Old Washington" zone that prohibits overhead wires. As to your question, I don't think it would kill the "feeling" of H St. But it's really a moot point. NCPC will never approve of overhead wires so long as there is a glimmer of hope that another option is possible, and Congress will never remove the ban over NCPC's objection.

turkeyrotica

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:30:56 -0500

Why aren't the planned D.C. streetcars using an in-pavement conduit system for power, as opposed to overhead wires? Are such systems no longer used around the world?

monkeyrotica

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:29:02 -0500

First you need to convince those on a prospective streetcar line that it's a good thing. That tearing up the streets and a decline in business in the short term will pay off in more foot traffic and customers in the long term. Then you have to convince all the "it's too expensive" crowd that even though you're paying more up front, streetcars cost less than busses to repair and maintain in the long term. And you're generating a whole new customer base: people who wouldn't think of taking a bus (which one? what do I do if I get lost?) will take a streetcar because of the fixed route. And finally, in DC's case at least, you have to deal with the whole "no overhead wires downtown" problem. Metro stations breed greater density and development. With that development, you need more transport options besides busses. You still have your work cut out for you. The Anacostia test line seems to be going nowhere, and the H Street line is a kind of "streetcar to nowhere." It terminates just short of the Union Station Metro. People aren't going to walk howevermany blocks just to go down H Street. They'll take a cab instead. I've already thrown a bunch of poop at the Bait Bicyle Thieves. I still say that would make a great movie.