DCist: Bikes vs. Cars: The Rules of Engagement

washcycle

Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:04:28 -0500

Of for the love of God, longtimeListener, have you even been paying attention?

LongtimeListener

Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:53:43 -0500

Step one to limiting the tension btw bikers and drivers: Bikers need to follow the traffic laws. Otherwise it's complete anarchy, and of course the drivers get pissed.

ibc

Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:41:57 -0500

But really winning is when the bike rider can just slightly bump into the car and cause the driver to fly out, hit their head and die because that's how it can be when cars hit bikes. True nuff, but *statistically* speaking that hardly ever actually happens. Whereas I personally know of at least three times in the last two years where a cyclist has taken his pound of flesh and ridden away scott-free. So the assertion that "we know who will always lose" in a bike-car altercation is just false. :)

Henry Krinkle

Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:03:51 -0500

A couple of days ago I saw a woman almost get hit by a car. She was walking and crossing (I think) 3rd St. at Mass and H, when a DON'T WALK sign was lit. She was talking on her cell phone, oblivious to oncoming traffic, and was surprised (and angry) when a car stopped and honked at her. That's not the first time I've seen something like that.

will585

Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:46:44 -0500

ibc, I can see how having someone take off your side mirror with a chain and getting away could be annoying. But really winning is when the bike rider can just slightly bump into the car and cause the driver to fly out, hit their head and die because that's how it can be when cars hit bikes. I personally give bike riders the room they need and for the most part when they see that I am not some ass in a cage they will do the same for me. Except for some ass who when I beeped my horn to let him know I was passing him came upon me later and took my side mirror off.

districtdon19

Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:23:03 -0500

Miss Daisy is also dead. ...just sayin..

monkeyrotica

Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:56:58 -0500

These bike vs car vs pedestrian circle jerk threads just makes me want to build a jetpack out of toiletpaper tubes, road flares, and blasting caps, just to give you something different to complain about. But you'll all be sorry when the MonkeyRocketic Jetpack Company finally stands up for the little guy and strikes a blow against "Big Jetpack." Of course, by then it will be too late, and the MonkeyRocketic 5000 will become a limited edition collectible enjoyed by the millionaire jetpack congnoscenti, who will hoard them amongst their Faberge easter eggs, Picassos, and snuff films. That is, until Francis Ford Coppola makes the movie starring Jeff Bridges as the man who dared to dreamed that one day, monkeys could fly.

DOR

Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:37:06 -0500

holy smokes, k-ton! I would advise against striking cars. That dude in Tienanmen square didn't swat Chinese tanks with his grocery bag. But, on the escalation of violence, communication through violence, and deterrence check you out some Thomas Schelling "Arms and Influence." And this escalation in bike v. car ain't new: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/fashion/10bikewars.html

hanli

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:17:44 -0500

In cities where the bike culture is evolved, such as Vancouver, Canada, THE CITY encourages bikers to stick to designated bike streets with incentives such as programing the lights for bikes and limiting access to cars for local traffic only. By reducing the number of bikes on high traffic streets and limiting the numbers of cars on designated bike routes, confrontations and collisions are dramatically reduced. As someone who bikes daily in D.C. I would be more than happy to go a few blocks out of my way for a more enjoyable commute.

lelaDC

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:59:36 -0500

I like to bike, but I must say that there are a minority of bikers out there who put themselves in danger. As a biker, if you are swerving between cars, going against traffic and not following traffic signals, if you get hit, it's called Darwinism.

Nate

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:06:56 -0500

biking at such an unsafe speed that would make Miss Daisy after morning Mass blush Not to hang up a perfectly good rant with a nitpick or anything, but Miss Daisy was Jewish . . .

run_for_the_hills

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:49:21 -0500

You don't even have to hit a car with hand/lock, thats too obvious. Just hold a key out and let the passing car do the work. If it goes deep enough you may just plant the seeds of rust. "Hey officer, that car just rubbed against my key, I tried to get it out of the way, I swear!"

ibc

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:09:00 -0500

But now this stuff makes me ashamed of riding my bike so I'm not seen as an internet whiner about how motor vehicles are about to get me. Seems to me that trading tips on how best to vandalize some anger-management case's car is the exact opposite of "internet whining." It actually makes me feel pretty good!

ibc

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:07:08 -0500

Another damn article about bikes versus cars? Jesus Christ we all know who wins that contest. You hear this a lot, but do we? Usually in an urban environment, the car driver honks their little horn, or shakes their tiny fist of rage impotently, and on a bike, you ignore it. But sometimes when a driver brushes you, or cuts you off, or whatever, you just wait til they're stopped in traffic, and you take their side view mirror off with your lock. Then you calmly ride off where they gridlocked auto can't follow. For example: down the sidewalk of a one-way street. Of course, you want to make sure the driver's not running after you, or something, but you can easily outpace even the most determined driver. Nothing could be simpler.

common_tater

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:04:24 -0500

pepper spray is legal here. mace is not.

Anonymous Girl in the City

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:38:17 -0500

What about pedestrians? Do they not exist in this equation? I guess as I am walking home fighting the cars trying to make right turns into the cross walk and bikers running red lights at me I am invisible. That must be why on an almost daily basis I have to fight to legally get across intersections. Besides dealing with jackass people taking up the sidewalk talking with their friends about how important they are. I thought we were supposed to have jet packs or tubes that teleported us to our destination by now. Until that happens I guess I will just need to clothes line the next bicyclist that tries to run me over. Watch out for the little angry woman crossing the street.

outsideliquid

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:22:39 -0500

so you hit a car, got punched in the face and then ate a burrito? what did you expect? you should of gave him a beat down and then spit on his girl. stop being a pussy. i commute every day through the city and it's easy. you just have to stay alert at all times. don't ride in the middle of the road unless you can ride at the speed of traffic as you're only going to piss someone off. weaving in and out of traffic is also fine, just make sure cars see you. yes i do roll thru most stop signs/red lights but i never make a car brake or slow down. if more cyclists learn how to ride with the flow of traffic, car-bike problems would be minimal.

districtdon19

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:51:23 -0500

@ MB DC: thank you very much. Clearly, everyone I see on a bike in DC writes for DCist, or comments on it a fair amount of the time. This DC blog topic comes up ad nauseam . It never comes to any sort of agreement (not that it should, it's merely a loose discussion). This annoys me more than the two full uninterrupted pages of Macbook blog posts/stories on Giz yesterday. I walk, bike, metro, drive in DC (and I have a ton of Apple stuff). But now this stuff makes me ashamed of riding my bike so I'm not seen as an internet whiner about how motor vehicles are about to get me. MPD isn't on the biker's side for anything (read: 16th and New Hampshire bike traps) because they break the laws that don't need to be broken in order to bike with any air of safety (biking down the wrong way down a one way, biking at such an unsafe speed that would make Miss Daisy after morning Mass blush, etc.) Blow whatever stop sign you want, guys and girls. I'll catch up to you in my car anyway, and you'll still have been breaking the law just to get ahead. Mentioned this time and time again, but WABA or whomever should push for city biking seminars just so Joe Schmo who hasn't mounted a bike since his (insert large suburban/rural college campus) days doesn't go out onto 16th Street in his Schwinn thinking everything is gravy during rush hour going 10mph at best. Earn the privilege of biking or else you're not much better than the cholo riders on 16th and Oak.

bmpietz

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:49:55 -0500

@daphil1: Can a biker please respond to why you don't feel it's necessary to stop at stop signs or stop lights? Answer - there is a certain elation in watching all those suckers in their gas guzzlers simmer away at intersections. However, that's not why I ride through red lights. First of all, I want to stress I never ride through unless I'm sure it's safe with regards to cars, pedestrians and myself. Second of all, when you're in a couple of lanes of traffic it is in my best interest as a biker, and your best interest as a driver, to have me get through the intersection 15 seconds early and get up to speed. This means a) the drivers behind me have time to get up to speed and pass in the other lane without necessarily slowing and b) see me and have time to adjust for a biker without just creeping along at 5 mph while I get started and getting pissy. In my experience, when I wait at the light with cars behind me, I get thoroughly pissed off drivers who want to be around me/in front of me as quickly as possible and that's when the honking and aggressive passing begins. If I'm already way up the street cars might not like that I didn't have to sit at the light, but now they don't have to sit behind me too.

sleepcamel

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:45:18 -0500

Just to throw a little twist into the traffic laws discussion (which, frankly, is a little boring): Traffic laws are an ideological construction used to trick us into thinking that driving is inherently safe, and that non-driving activities on the road (like cycling or jaywalking) are inherently dangerous. During the early days of the automobile, prior to the rise of "jaywalking" laws, collisions between cars and pedestrians were attributed to reckless drivers and dangerous vehicles. Obviously, this was bad for the auto industry, so they used their increasing political clout (and enlisted help from the Boy Scouts, oddly enough), to create an "information campaign" about the dangers of jaywalking (a term invented by the auto industry) and then to push through laws banning jaywalking. As a result, the blame in car/pedestrian collisions was shifted away from drivers (and their metal death machines) and on to pedestrians and cyclists, and the car industry was given a monopoly over public thoroughfares. The entire "right to the road" discussion, even when argued from the perspective of cyclists, accepts the car-first paradigm. So, frankly, whenever I see the rather tiring suggestion that cyclists who run red lights are law-hating anarchists, I just like to point out that those laws are inherently pro-car, and that I think of my lawbreaking light running as thoughtful, non-violent civil disobedience, and a demonstration of the failure of the law to recognize the unique needs and advantages of the bicycle. (Although, back to the original topic, I still say its always better to use civilized discourse to engage with drivers -- not U-locks or middle fingers.)

The Anti DC

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:28:05 -0500

Here's something sorta hypothetical. Drivers, what would you rather contend with? 1) You're driving up Conn. Ave. in the right lane and hit a traffic light. There is a bicycle directly ahead of you. And cars on your left. Now, there's nothing coming in the intersection. The cyclist decides to "follow the law" and not go through the red light. Oh, and by the way, the cyclist is really following the law and taking up the whole lane -- that's the law! Anyway, a few seconds later the light turns green and the cyclist starts moving at 5 mph. You're on an incline. And since there's traffic and you're "following the law" you can't swerve around the slow-moving, but law-abiding cyclist without you, yourself, breaking the law. So you creep on behind. -OR- 2) The cyclist takes this opportunity of no traffic coming the other way to get the hell out in front of the cars in back of him (or her) and gain speed, so that when the cars finally go during the green light they won't rear-end the cyclist out of road rage and you, the driver, get to where you need to go. The choice to me is obvious. Common sense sometimes trumps the law and when cyclists go scofflaw, they're not just doing it to benefit ourselves and be jackasses. Often it makes it safer for ALL involved. Think please.

monkeyrotica

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:01:43 -0500

I'm not uberfamiliar with D.C. bike laws, but in Maryland cyclists are required to stay on the right unless making a left turn. I think that stopped being the case right around the time the left-hand lane stopped being the "passing only" lane and became the "I'll sit here doing 20 MPH under the speed limit in my Tahoe while I try and fiddle with my cellphone" lane. This thread really needs more Columbia Heights rockthrowing teens and Portland theremin bands. I'd be running all them f***ers off the road.

MB_DC

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:46:14 -0500

Up next, from the Department Of Tried-And-True Topics With Which To Outrage The Internet Masses: "Should I tip my waiter if I don't like the food?" God, you people make it so easy.

ClevelandRocks

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:27:01 -0500

What a bunch of whiny rule-followers you lot are. "I have a RIGHT to be here on my bike!" And you have a right to walk around at night in SE...but would you do so expecting to be completely safe? And would you get this indignant about it? "Drivers don't respect me!" Dude, I don't respect you Why? Because you're whiny. You think you have a right to the road because it's just more better good for you that way. People in cars don't care about your Utopian vision on a gas-free world. They might even hit out of rage and spite. So what? Grow up. There's no mommy or daddy out there in the form of a cop or a judge to help you. There's no higher power to appeal to. Some places are better than others for riding. If you ride in the city, accept that it's dangerous and that you won't always be able to enjoy it. It is stressful. It is full of near misses. I ride in the city all the time and it's rarely a cakewalk. Stop acting like a bunch of pissy 20-somethings.

whatwhat

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:25:08 -0500

So I just wanted to throw out my reasoning for why I ride on Rock Creek Park vs the Path, or any street vs pedestrian zone. I can only speak for myself here. Its a matter of speed. I am in relatively good shape and average build. My average speed is typically 16-18mph on a flat. For perspective when running its hard for me to keep an 8min mile pace (7.5mph), biking is almost twice that speed on a flat and not pushing hard. Consider how sporadic pedestrians are, a sidestep at the wrong moment means a collision (think when was the last time you looked over your shoulder before stepping aside to tie your shoe?). Ever have that drivers ed talk about seat belts? Something about running full force into a brick wall (maybe 9mph remember). Its a definite way to cause a lot of damage quickly (not to mention, no one in their right mind would ever do this knowingly). All of these factors combine to make it attractive to ride on the road, not the side walk, and not on jogging trails. Everything is amplified when people jog with their ipod, dog, baby, and/or friend. The possible collision gets exponentially worse when I sprint on my bike or cruise downhill segments. Again consider the speed, I can maintain a 34mph sprint on a flat and routinely hit 40mph on downhill segments with little effort. I risk injury from negligent drivers to avoid the possibility of taking out a mother and child on the path. I know I could slow down and ride on the path, but that doesn't allow me a good workout.

guest guest

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:24:53 -0500

oops "... bikes belong on roads."

guest guest

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:24:12 -0500

monkeyerotica, sorry, stumbling toddlers trump annoying drivers. bikes belong on, or, as you suggested, designated bicycle trails which forbid pedestrians, under penalty of law. Which translates into: bikes belong on roads, exclusively.

guest guest

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:13:42 -0500

I'm not uberfamiliar with D.C. bike laws, but in Maryland cyclists are required to stay on the right unless making a left turn. Regardless of the law, the safest place for a cyclist to position his/herself is 3 to 4 feet to the left of parallel parked cars, which: 1) prevents door prizes and the need to swerve into the lane to avoid door prizes. 2) gives the drivers merging or crossing from the right the ability to see you. If you are hugging a lane of parallel parked SUVs, they cannot see you. 3) forces the drivers behind you to take exceptional care while passing you, as it requires them pay attention while slightly crossing the line of oncoming traffic or the passing lane. Otherwise, and all cyclists know this, the driver with think it is perfectly safe to pass while only giving you 2 inches of space. It isn't safe, AT ALL. This might cost the driver one timed traffic light, and add thirty seconds to his or her commute. But that's safety for you. Now, about those cyclists that are actually riding in the middle of the lane. Eff em and drive over them. They sound like a$$holes anyway.

monkeyrotica

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:57:56 -0500

A.J. - 1. Hybrid bike with shocks. 2. Slow down. 3. Leave earlier. Also, I'll add #4: Get one of those klaxxon bike horns that goes "Ah-OOOOOOOO-GAH!" The sight of Little Snotley soiling himself in fear is worth the price of admission. Would it really kill them to add another foot-and-a-half to the trail and make it a Bike-Only lane? Whenever they get around to resurfacing it, that is.

AJ Pasl

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:38:55 -0500

Why are there bikers on Rock Creek Parkway? 1. The trail is in horrible condition for commuting. Tree roots have grown under the paved surface along much of the path, causing pointy bumps. They're more like those yellow, tall, plastic speedbumps bolted into the concrete in parking garages than those nice paved speed-humps on city streets. Would you be okay with driving along Rock Creek Parkway every day if you had to deal with those every few carlengths? 2. Other trail users. Commuting at speed along the trail is dangerous for pedestrians, and navigating through them in a respectful manner takes up a lot of time. 3. It's a trail. It's not a road, or a bike lane. It's meant to allow trail users to appreciate the Park, not provide them with an effective commute - point is, it's very circuitous, riding on it takes more time not only because of pedestrians, but the sheer distance added. That's why cyclists use the road. I'll risk my own skin on Beach Drive, rather than pose a rather serious threat to inattentive children with parents who have every right to be on the trail.

mho

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:33:37 -0500

@New Gal: It's perfectly legal for a bike to take up an entire lane of traffic, supposedly the safest way to bike. Both the DMV and WABA say that.

monkeyrotica

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:22:52 -0500

But I think considerably more cyclists have an elitist ‘holier than thou’ attitude toward anyone that drives. Usually these folks are young, live in a studio near U Street, have no family responsibilities, can walk/bike to everything they need, and view their cycling as a holy mission, designed to show their moral superiority. Yeah, but is this just a function of them being on bikes or them being young and stupid? Do the older cyclists share these characteristics? What about the vehicular equivalent? You've got Moronica and her girl pals texting while they're trying to drive around the blue-haired dowager going 50 MPH under the speed limit. I'm just hoping neither whips out the cellphone and veers into me. Not to make this an intergenerational war thing, but take your Jetta and your Lincoln and GET OFF MY LAWN.

Nate

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:19:45 -0500

Is there a weekly -ist-imposed quota of urban biking angst that DCist feels compelled to meet? It absolutely sucks that you got punched in the face, Kriston, but seeing posts designed to elicit the exact same ranty discussion week after week on DCist is getting kind of old. Of course, it does offer us the the entertainment of hearing people offer up old chestnuts like, "But bicyclists run red lights!" and "Cars need to behave themselves better because they're inherently more dangerous!" as if they really thought they were adding something to the debate . . .

Lis

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:10:55 -0500

I agree with a lot of what has been said in the comments. Cars should never go after bikers and bikers are not justified in damaging others' property (even if those others are jerks). I also agree with the whole a lot of bikers are jerks. I'm mainly a pedestrian in this city and have almost been run over by bikers when I was crossing in a crosswalk with a walk signal and the biker had a red light. Not that this will solve all the problems, but I we definitely need more bike lanes in this city. Even though drivers may still be jerks the bike lanes reaffirm that bikers have a right to be there.

Hillman

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:09:40 -0500

I love this topic. It brings out the inner douchebag in us all. It’s like a lightly oiled Brazilian mechanic, with a fresh Krispy Kreme donut on his bare stomach, beckoning me with a come-hither ‘teach me English the hard way’ stare. I’ll preface this with the usual disclaimer. I do all the transport modes – evil car, saintly cycle, two foot drunken stumble, back carry by hot pre-fuck-fest Brazilians through Adams Morgan, stolen baby stroller pushed by homeless crack whores, and so forth. So I’m fully qualified to pontificate. I got no problem with cyclists (sorry, a ‘biker’ rides a Harley) safely going through stop signs or even traffic signals, particularly on slower residential streets. I think it gets them out of traffic faster, which is a good thing. What I think the real impact of the new popularity of cycling as a primary transport is the effect on traffic flow. DC finally got it’s act together and actually timed many of the lights in the city. This assumed certain traffic speeds. Cyclists that insist on riding in the middle of the traffic lane going 10 mph fucks that into the ground. Yes, I know you have the right to ride there. But it takes a special douchebag to screw up traffic patterns for twenty people behind them just to ‘assert their rights’. The impact isn’t just a minor delay. It means you miss that next light. And the next one. And the next one. And so on. This slows down traffic in an exponential fashion. This is something the city is going to have to address. But, then, this is DC, so I’m doubting it’s something anyone will actually look at. As for drivers, I got no problem believing some drivers are malicious toward cyclists. But, honestly, I’ve never had a driver try to injure me. And I ride probably three or four days a week. What I have had is drivers cut me off, usually as they try to turn right. But it rarely seems intentional. In fact, I assume it’s a hazard of cycling. Why? Because I’m on a tiny bike, my physical presence is underwhelming at best, and the roadways in DC are often a confusing maze of distractions. Everything from poorly marked signage to lost tourist drivers to crack whores wandering in and out of traffic. I think the idea that it’s acceptable to intentionally do damage to a driver that cuts you off or crowds you is stupid. First it assumes that you know for sure the driver meant to do it. Then it assumes the driver won’t get out and kick your ass or shoot you in the nuts, Butters-style. And it glosses over the fact that you intentionally fucking with a moving vehicle may very well cause a more serious accident. I do think some drivers resent cyclists. But I think considerably more cyclists have an elitist ‘holier than thou’ attitude toward anyone that drives. Usually these folks are young, live in a studio near U Street, have no family responsibilities, can walk/bike to everything they need, and view their cycling as a holy mission, designed to show their moral superiority. And they seem more than ready to trash-talk all car drivers, no matter what the circumstance. I don’t know – maybe it’s their skinny jeans, restricting blood flow. But let’s talk about a group we can all hate. Pedestrians that aren't us. It’s pretty routine to see pedestrians weaving through multiple lanes of traffic, mid-block, texting or cell phoning away. My favorite, though, is the mom using her massive baby-stroller as a shield as she crosses mid-block or against the light, glaring at you because you obviously didn't see how her having a baby stroller made it ok for her to cross any damn way that would save 30 seconds.

monkeyrotica

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:06:35 -0500

Anecdotally, I can't remember the last time someone got pissed that I was walking to slowly so they jogged around me screaming obscenities. Don't knock it until you've tried it. I do this at least five times a day before lunch. It really helps pick up the pace when those voices in your head just wont go away. It also helps if you scream at your shoes about Vince Foster, Whitewater, and how Monica Lewinsky was an agent of the Mossad.

guest guest

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:59:52 -0500

daphil1, well, for starters, taking one hand off the handlebars to signal is about ten times more dangerous than not signaling. I always put safety first. If signaling does not compromize my stability, I do it. If it feels like it will cause a wobbley, which it does about 50% of the time while slowing down, I do not.

stmove

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:55:59 -0500

@hillman, you're right that is too general. The vast majority of drivers and cyclists are really great- we can all agree on that? But I don't think you can say people are more civil in vehicles (four or two wheeled) than off of them. Anecdotally, I can't remember the last time someone got pissed that I was walking to slowly so they jogged around me screaming obscenities. I am out of my attention span depth here... no more bike/car comment threads for me, no matter how they may tempt.

coleenicole

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:47:16 -0500

I sympathize with the cyclist here, but I have to say, I see WAY too many cyclists RUNNING red lights, often in front of my car, and I either slam on my brakes or possibly hit another car trying to avoid them. If you really want sympathy then you need to obey the traffic laws as well. And when I am walking, it is ridiculous the amount of bikes on the sidewalk, it's called a sideWALK people. The fist ponding on the trunk? Oh yeah, totally acceptable. In fact it's my favorite thing to do when jerks run through the pedestrian crosswalks without stopping, you know the one where it's the LAW to stop? In fact, I have had to jump out of the way of a couple of bikes as well.... Everyone needs to just stop being so self absorbed and pay attention. Everyone deserves to ride their bike, walk, or yes even drive their car, but we all need to follow the rules so that people don't get hurt.

Hillman

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:39:29 -0500

"the general issue that in this city (as most places) human + wheels = asshole." Generalize much?

stmove

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:29:56 -0500

Not to argue against me being an idiot, that was proven long ago when I was flattened by a Harris Teeter truck on my unicycle, also my mom told me I was sort of slow... but I think the point of my pointless tirade was missed. That is- to share the road- basically to calm down. I have biked and driven in countries in South America, Asia, Europe and here. And no where is there so much driver angst towards cyclists as here. In most places people learned to drive understanding they don't rule the roads, the occasional non-car-human may interject, or biker, or chicken, and you deal with it. All this is pointless as no law enforcement will deal with the general issue that in this city (as most places) human + wheels = asshole. If everyone, drivers and bikers alike would coexist in a more fluid and patient way, instead of each moving along as if the other should not exist, a lot of this would be mute. If I were not an idiot, I would love to study the brain activity of people driving, why is it that when you are walking and someone cuts you off (coming out of 7-eleven for example) you don't go off screaming and stressed, if someone accidentally steps on your heel in the metro I have not seen that many fights break out, if someone is walking slowly in front of you, you just go around without cursing them out. Why does all that change as soon as the ass hits the car seat? The u-lock and mace was in jest, but I understand these are serious times we live in. Let us pray.

Kriston Capps

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:24:10 -0500

@hillman I realize now I took things too far with that bit.

monkeyrotica

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:19:52 -0500

Ah, "automomaniac!" The mot juste. And it trips so elegently off the tongue, like "bi-psychopath" and "ped-deathstrian." I'll never call them anything else. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to work in my scooter made out of a mop handle, a milk crate, and a skateboard. And by "work" I mean "strangling hobos under the freeway."

gmg

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:12:50 -0500

Stmove, your comment suggests you are perhaps an idiot. Let's everybody repeat together: Being on a bike actually does NOT give you the right to break traffic laws willy-nilly. If you ride in the road, you follow the posted signs, because they are there to ensure that some individual idiot "using his judgment" doesn't do something dumb. If you ride on the sidewalk, you watch out for pedestrians and let them know you're passing, because that's simple politeness and you're going faster than them. Are there really still people who don't get this?

sirchek

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:10:54 -0500

@stmove, you're an idiot. Bikes must follow the same laws as cars, they don't get a special exception because they can't kill someone. Good luck following your own advice, I think it won't be long before you find yourself stuck to the front end of an SUV. We'll see how handy your mace and U lock are then.

Henry Krinkle

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:08:58 -0500

All of these comments make me glad that I live in Maryland, and when I ride my bike I mainly stay on the trails.

Hillman

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:07:29 -0500

"Automomaniac" Really?

will585

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:02:35 -0500

Another damn article about bikes versus cars? Jesus Christ we all know who wins that contest. If you want the safety of a car drive a car. Riding a bike in traffic involves some risk. If you don't want to take that risk don't ride a bike. Now excuse me I have pedestrians to run over on the sidewalk.

stmove

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:54:25 -0500

There is nothing sadder, and more impotently pathetic than a car driver who is "bitter" towards a biker (dap). Someone sitting in a luxury chair slightly moving their foot to go from 0-60, versus someone working their ass off (literally) to get from point a to b. If you want to run lights or run stop signs, then get off your lazy ass and ride a bike! Otherwise, turn up the radio and chill out you over wound cock. I think that is the single dumbest question I have read all week (and I have been writing dumb questions for days now...) The reason you can run lights and signs on a bike is the same reason you can walk all willy nilly down the fucking sidewalk if you want to, also the same reason you can do jumping jacks in a city park if you feel like it-- YOU'RE NOT IN A CAR! AND YOU CAN'T EASILY KILL SOMEONE! So go ahead and free yourself up dap, when you walk down the sidewalk, swerve a little bit, hell even skip off the curb and back if you want (gasp), you may survive, and when you are biking, cruise through a stop sign, let me say it one more time-- you're on a bike. As for the other topic, people need to chill the hell out and stop being self indulgent assholes. Screaming helps nothing, it just makes bikers/drivers hate each other more. It just adds more "one time this biker flipped me off..." stories to the repertoire of all drivers and vice versus. Just ride on and realize that moving on roads with other people sucks. Suck it up. Other than that, carry a big u-lock on the handle bars and some mace on your belt loop and you will be fine. The mace if very satisfying when someone rolls down the window to scream at you, and like Pavlov will train them to never roll down their windows to scream again.

Virginia is for Losers

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:38:40 -0500

"Not to mention there are a lot of people in the city who have no regard for others in general. " You've hit the nail on the head, right there. It constantly amazes me how people in this town can be so well educated, yet so fucking ignorant. If everyone would take the time to look out for their fellow citizens, this would be a much more pleasant place to bike, and to drive. But yeah, I don't get the whole bikes-taking-up-whole-vehicle-lane-in-Rock-Creek thing. I see this on the GW Parkway a lot, and they're not off to the side they're right in the middle." I don't get it, either. I guess it wouldn't be so bad if they were at least trying to do the speed limit, but more often than not, they're going 15 MPH.

cgoulddc

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:28:23 -0500

Since we're engaging to such broad generalizations, Daphil1, perhaps you can tell me why motorists feel it's necessary to break the law - refusing to use turn signals, going way over the speed limit, and running yellow lights? I'm not perfect, and certainly I've broken the law while riding my bike, but I can also tell you that there are plenty of places on my daily commute where breaking the law and inconveniencing motorists for half-a-second are, in fact, the safest thing to do. Try to safely cross 3 lanes of traffic on a bike and turn left on a road treated by motorists as an entrance ramp to a highway (even though the speed limit is 25), and you'll see what I mean: in fact, the safest way of handling such a situation could very well mean running a red light.

Jaynuze

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:26:19 -0500

Please don't hit cars ... I say this as a bike and auto commuter. On my bike, I've rolled through my share of stop signs/lights after ensuring there was no traffic, but I've also sped through my share of yellow/turning red lights in my car. Striking out at another will only escalate the situation. Either calmly roll up and apologize/explain the situation or keep your mouth shut and your hands/U-Lock to yourself. Violent actions towards an auto will only make it worse for oneself and all other bikers on the road. Set an example ... follow the rules of the road and be civil; rise above the D-Bags of the world and act like a human being.

sixfive

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:26:18 -0500

You were followed and then punched in the face?? Wow. That is horrendous.

IMGoph

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:12:46 -0500

daphil1: you had to get that last little 'lawbreakers' dig in there didn't you? after sounding so sincere with the rest of your request. passive/agressive much? look up the idaho state law on bikes and stop signs/traffic lights. that's what i'm looking to implement here in the district.

daphill1

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:06:49 -0500

Can a biker please respond to why you don't feel it's necessary to stop at stop signs or stop lights? If you want to share the road then abide by the laws...it may help with people feeling so bitter and aggressive about your meandering about the streets in between cars and flying through intersections. I'd appreciate the appropriate lane signaling as well, lawbreakers.

monkeyrotica

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 06:31:21 -0500

i'm surprised that not a single comment acknowledges that many bikers in this town are aggresive and/or innattentive assholes, too. the jerk quotient isn't limited to car drivers alone. Nobody said it was limited to car drivers. But the fact is there's a difference between an a$$hole yelling at you in the street and an a$$hole yelling at you in the street with a deadly weapon, viz a two-ton hunk of metal hurtling at 40 MPH. Having been on both sides of the hunk of metal, I have to say that being inside does give you a sense of safety and privelege that two flimsy wheels can't provide. But yeah, I don't get the whole bikes-taking-up-whole-vehicle-lane-in-Rock-Creek thing. I see this on the GW Parkway a lot, and they're not off to the side they're right in the middle. My guess is that these bikers are the aggressive type that don't want to have to weave in and out of the triple-wide-stroller-and-dog set who themselves are choking up the bike lane. There's kind of an induced demand going on here; as with roads, you provide a "free" resource like bike lanes and people are going to use them. Combine that with the privatization of public space and Americans' ginormous "comfort zone" they have to surround themselves with (ironically, Escalades are the perfect size), and you have a recipe for c0cks*ckers and motherf***ers duking it out in the middle of 14th Street with Kryptonite locks and Grande Frappucinos. And that whole "share the road" thing goes double for bike lanes. But I guess Barney never told them that sharing is caring. Probably too busy riding their Big Wheels, running people off the sidewalk, and giving them the finger. It's manifest destiny writ small and in crayon.

fullcarbon

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:13:34 -0500

how many fucking times are you losers going to bring up the same subject? DC isn't even a dangerous place to ride a bike.

IMGoph

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:12:54 -0500

guns. bikers need to shoot drivers. it is the only logical end to this. we must go to war. i am inciting ultra-violence. aw hell, it just doesn't feel fun anymore...

New Gal

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:44:47 -0500

I've commuted by bike in downtown DC for about half a year now, and I just wanted to add that as scary as aggressive drivers can be, by and large I have been really pretty pleased with the drivers here. Okay, yes, you do get an annoying amount of cell-phone-blinded hazards, and you do occasionally run across a person who clearly shouldn't be on the road at all, but every day I commute I run across at least one considerate driver who is careful to watch out for me. Considering that DC streets are the least bike-friendly streets of any city I've lived in (and really, District, could we do something about that?), most days I do feel pretty safe on the road. Drivers, we really do notice good behavior, and appreciate it. And for the sake of continuing to play Devil's Advocate, there is nothing more frustrating than working hard to stay safe and watching all of your work wasted by another cyclist idiotically running through intersections, riding at night without lights, swerving in front of cars, taking up an entire lane of traffic, ignoring red lights and stop signs, or (fill in your own horror story here). Hey, I'm not perfect, but good behavior goes two ways, folks.

yonas

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:11:34 -0500

I agree with Ol_Chappy. He's a wise son of a bitch and you all should listen.

eisenhut2000

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:31:53 -0500

I definitely wouldn't recommend using violence against drivers of their cars. With the number of absolutely crazy people in this city, escalating an already bad situation is generally ill-advised. Unfortunately there are many terrible drivers in the city who have no regard for anyone else on the road. Not to mention there are a lot of people in the city who have no regard for others in general. However, I agree with 'regentrifydc' that in this city not just drivers, but also cyclists, are often oblivious to the rules of the road, or openly flout them. Numerous times have I seen cyclists riding the wrong way on one-way streets or not stopping at stop signs. Twice recently I have been in my car, stopped at a red light, and when the light turned green and I prepared to accelerate, cyclists recklessly rode through the intersection. I am a very attentive and safe driver but I think quite drivers out there would have come close to hitting the cyclists. Also on a daily basis I see numerous people riding bicycles on sidewalks in the downtown area. I'd like to point out that cycling on sidewalks downtown is unlawful. The other day I saw a woman ride her bike across 17th and K NW, against traffic, and onto the sidewalk, yelling for people on the sidewalk to get out of the way. I'd also like to point out that cyclists using the roads are legally treated the same as cars. That is, cyclists on the roads must obey ALL of the same traffic laws that drivers so. Legally, cyclists are supposed to signal when turning, stop at all stop signs, and never ride through red lights. /will try to think of a legal method of reprisal against antagonistic drivers

regentrifydc

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:07:57 -0500

i'm surprised that not a single comment acknowledges that many bikers in this town are aggresive and/or innattentive assholes, too. the jerk quotient isn't limited to car drivers alone. as a pedestrian i'm regularly dismayed to see bikers endanger themselves and others - pedestrians and drivers alike - as these bikers disobey one traffic law after another. every day i see bikes driven the wrong way on one-way streets, or driven the wrong way in a traffic lane on a 2-way street. i almost never see a bike stop for a red light - but regularly see them dart in an out of traffic flowing perpendicular to their path in an intersection - while they ride against the light. i've repeatedly had near misses with bikers who round corners at high speed and with no regard for people in crosswalks - or bikers aggressivley riding on sidewalks and yelling at people to give way. this bike/driver animosity isn't a one way street. i really love those bikes that insist on using an entire lane of traffic on rock creek parkway - even when they have an exclusive, separate bike path where they can terrorize runners with their arrogant riding technique. i now there are asshole car drivers but dc bikers have plenty of jerks to even out the ratio...

Ol_Chappy

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:02:38 -0500

As a longtime DC cyclist (~9yr DC messenger) and someone who's been in many of these confrontations, I can only say that instigating violence against your antagonist, however justified you think it is at the time, is always -- always! -- a bad idea. It may be that one could improve on the outlook of certain drivers with the business end of a U-lock. But I think it's unlikely, and more importantly, when you take that kind of step, you give up the high ground. This has immediate, practical adverse consequences, not just moral ones...a cyclist already has a hard time getting drivers, cops, judges to see things their way, but it's possible. When you take the role of a belligerent, that's off the table. Even though the driver may be much more of a real threat to your physical person, by virtue of curb weight, than your Kryptonite lock is to their side panels, that's not how it's going to be perceived. In the moment, the driver may decide they're justified in using their vehicle as a weapon. Afterwards they can make a case to a cop or judge that you were threatening their life; sadly or hilariously, they'll probably be believed. It's not worth it. To get around by bike in this city you have to let a certain amount of shit slide, near misses, plain disrespect, whatever. If you do get in a serious situation, keep that high ground, get a cop involved and stay safe, don't pull that u-lock unless you're acting in defense. I like what Knuckleup said, engage...people respond much better to their own sense of ethics (it's in there, 99% of the time) then they do to being screamed at or threatened.

songfta

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:41:23 -0500

The aggression level of drivers has gone up with the increase in fuel prices, which has put more cyclists on the road. And while many cyclists are law-abiding, there are more than a few who have, shall we say, creative interpretations of the law as it applies to them (hint: the same basic rules of the road apply to bikes and cars alike). So for those of us who do abide by the laws on the books, it's troublesome when drivers decide that all cyclists are the same: annoyances on their toys, who belong on the sidewalk or playground. My last run-in with a driver was a doozy: the guy who was pissed at me happened to have a low-number plate. As I wrote last week on my blog, folks with vanity plates (and these low-number plates are the ultimate in political vanity in DC) need to be careful, as it's easy to remember their tags when reporting their sorry-ass behavior to the DCPD.

ellabellalee

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:21:58 -0500

i am a DC biker. as such, this is a crazy city to ride a bike and i have had some wild rides in other cities. i have come to accept that some people do not appreciate bikers. this is o.k. with me. but when it comes to a car driver getting upset with me and using their dangerous vehicle against me, then i use what i have to defend myself. there is NO reason these drivers should be so upset and aggressive with bikers. we're on bikes for god's sake! there have been several times in which my U lock has been very handy to dent some trunks or doors.

DAJ

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:16:18 -0500

While not a biker, as a pedestrian I regularly almost get hit in the crosswalk of any intersection in the city. I am a firm believer of an open palm to the quarter panel. My experience is it makes a very loud boom in the car and alerts the driver that they just tried to murder a pedestrian. Cars kill more people in this country every year than any other weapon. We need, as a society to treat reckless driver as nothing more than criminals who wield a dangerous weapon dangerously. If someone was walking around with a shotgun randomly shooting and then claiming it was the pedestrians fault for getting in the way of the shot would we stand it? No! We have a right to defend out life by any means necessary. Things would change if we began dragging dangerous drivers from their car and holding them until the police arrived and charged them with assault and battery.

outdoortype

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:46:41 -0500

Violence begets violence. You punched an aggressively driven car. Someone in the aggressively driven car punched you in the face. Shocking. Is it possible that in the midst of your "debate about etiquette" that you might have further incensed the male who was "behaving in a manner consistent with being high on drugs?" (Am I hinting that you deserved both the punch in the face and the crappy burrito that followed? Yes.) Divers should certainly respect bikers and learn to share the road. Bikers should reserve a healthy amount of respect for the 5,000 pounds of steel barreling their way (and, for God's sake, always wear a helmet and at night wear reflective clothing). This post ought to have been left for a line or two in "Go Home Already."

rakhell

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:39:23 -0500

Frankly, I have a bike and ride it infrequently, mostly to get to local bike routes like the GW parkway, but I'm scared for my life when I ride in town. I don't care how poor a cyclist is riding, in your lane or not, there is absolutely no excuse for a driver responding violently. The potential for life-ending situations is so high when its car vs. bike that its unfathomable to me how any driver sees it as their right to use that car in an aggressive manner towards a cyclist. If I'm in your way, feel free to go around me, honk, even flip me off, but never, never use that vehicle against me. How is this such a difficult concept to grasp? I mean, I would imagine that the blogger's roomate would have every right to see their attacker charged with attempted manslaughter, or at the very least, assault with a deadly weapon. I have never punched a car on a bike (my balance isn't that good) but I've done it many times as a pedestrian to cars turning in front of me in a crosswalk. I don't care if I can't back up my actions physically. But I don't want drivers to think that its okay to not yield to those more vulnerable on the road. If you can calmly talk to a driver, go for it, but in my experience, almost getting killed (accidentally or not) deserves a far more extreme response. All that adrenaline, and there's no way I could keep that in check to explain rules of the road. I think I could handle a fist to face, if I managed to have a witness to it. (But I'd hope no one would punch a girl just to make a point about road ettiquate).

somegirl

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:38:58 -0500

I guess I'm theoretically a proponent of calm, rational dialogue with people who nearly kill me. In real life I am simply not Zen master enough to manage this when every nerve cell in my body is vibrating with terror. The most self-control I could muster would probably be to channel the anger through a U-lock and not my less effective bare hands.

rosscott

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:21:18 -0500

There's too many jerks in this city. The drivers treat bikers like crap. Sadly, I'm not sure violent responses do much good. Don't get me wrong, I wish it would help but a violent driver who just got their car attacked isn't going to become a non-violent driver any time soon. Camaraderie amongst bikers is the best method I know. I had a diplomat van cut me off and another biker caught up to him and chewed him out for me. It was amazing! Here's another true story: http://www.notquitewrong.com/rosscottinc/2008/09/25/the-system-61/

knuckleup

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:31:34 -0500

I'm a big proponent of talking to the drivers who scream at me, honk at me, and/or nearly kill me. It's humanizing. One time, on 14th Street, a car was either parking or swerving to get out of his spot. I swerved a little left. The woman behind me honked at me and zoomed past. I gestured wildly at the car that had moved on my right, and then I flipped her off. She stopped at the red light, and I biked up to her passenger-side window. She and I looked at each other through the glass, and I made the roll-down sign. She rolled her window down and immediately started yelling at me to (a) watch my middle finger and (b) stay in my fucking bike lane. I tried to explain about the car that had come into my bike lane. She was too pissed to listen. Since then, I either flip off a-hole drivers or go up and talk to them, but not both. I've thought about hitting their cars, but I haven't brought myself to that yet.

gaston6858

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:29:46 -0500

Please remember drivers are institutionalized irrate people. Be scared of all 4 wheel or more vehicals. It is easier to imagine every car with a monster. Stay away. Also, realize you are faster and if you hit one during an accident, at your fault, the rule of the road/insurance is to run away free. I was a driver and everyone is different in a car. I'm a biker and with this image I have no stress. Just being better is great!

sleepcamel

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:28:53 -0500

Oops. There was supposed to be a question between my 2nd and 3rd paragraphs: Which of these two incidents do you think was more satisfying for me? And which is more likely to affect a positive change?

sleepcamel

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:26:25 -0500

Last week I was run off the road twice by two different cars swerving into a bike lane, both on the same block. The first was a woman on her cellphone who just couldn't seem to keep it in a straight line. I slapped her trunk and yelled, and saw a combination of fear and anger in her reaction as I rode past. At the end of the block, the very next car nearly hit me as he came into the lane in anticipation of a right turn. For whatever reason, I responded in exactly the opposite way this time. I rode up next to his window, which was down, and calmly explained the law for right turns across bike lanes: "Treat it just like you would a real lane - signal, look, and 'change lanes' into the bike lane." He responded politely, apologetically, and gratefully. It's really hard to pull off in a high adrenalin moment, but the rational and respectful conversation is really the way to go. Obviously, this won't work with the assholes, but I think the vast majority of driver-cyclist conflicts are due to poor understanding of the formal and informal laws of cycling. I also think, particularly for those of us who see cycling as part of a more general sense of holistic well-being (you know, the sustainability, community-building crowd), that inflaming tension between cyclists and drivers is just kind of antithetical to our core goals.

guest guest

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:25:44 -0500

I'm not justifying aggressive driving towards cyclists. I'm a cyclist, not a driver. I too am guilty of being a little too vocal on the road and critical of the parentage of those drivers who fail to drive safely within my 3 foot safety zone. Whenever I do that I'm pretty upset with myself, as I'm reminded of the guy I used to know who flipped off the wrong gangsters, which resulted in him getting a beat down, followed by being held down while the driver drove over him, TWICE. I'm not sure if he finds it as sweet flipping off drivers from a wheelchair. BUT, in those instances where one feels the need to physically assault the property of those who wrong us, one really must be confident in his or her ability to defend him/herself once the situation elevates to the next stage. Basically, you proved that you are capable of being mad enough to punch a car. The boyfriend proved that he was capable of being mad enough to punch you in the face. Right and wrong really doesn't apply here. A leads to B which leads to C, with C being a fist in your face. I see there is no evidence of C leading to D, with D being you defending yourself. Had there been, that burrito might have tasted a hell of a lot better, or you might have found out that E really really hurts. Basically, I'm saying the next time you are faced with A, don't B unless you are prepared to deal with C, because dealing with C without delivering D makes food taste like shit. Also, the wheelchair thing...

jeepsterboy

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:09:23 -0500

The phenomena of 4 wheels being better then 2 isn't just reserved to bicycles... as an avid motorcyclist I have experienced this as well.

indiecognition

Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:43:15 -0500

How do you know the biker was intentionally clipped by the car. Maybe the driver was just an aggressive asshole, but meant to rush by without any vehicular assault? Obviously, a car hitting a bike is way more fucked up than a biker punching a car...but ideally we'd all just get along. And ride hovercars and jetpacks that run on Dunkin'.