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Morning Roundup: Black Friday Edition
Did you know that Segway riders are banned from riding on sidewalks within the Central Business District? What about that some small fraction of disabled people regularly ride Segways? These are the true and exciting facts that can be learned from this Examiner story today on a little bit of D.C. Council business that went down yesterday. See, it turns out that Miles Groves, the president of the Downtown Neighborhood Association, is a chronic pain sufferer and a Segway rider. Groves uses a Segway to get around the city easier, and was recently given "a polite warning" by a police officer that he wasn't supposed to be riding on the sidewalk. Not included in the Examiner story: the phone call Groves presumably placed to Tommy Wells, champion of alternative transportation. And Wells came to the rescue yesterday, convincing the Council to pass emergency legislation to give disabled Segway riders a pass on being forced to ride in the street.
Left unclear is how police officers are supposed to be able to distinguish disabled Segway riders from other folks. Hopefully that'll be worked out by the time permanent legislation is considered. As emergency legislation, this bill will expire in 90 days.
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DDOT has a great overview of which vehicles aren't allowed in DC, and under what conditions they can/must be registered, if at all: http://ddot.dc.gov/ddot/lib/ddot%2Finformation%2Fmotorized-vehicles%2Fnon-trad_motorizedvehicles.pdf
Getting MPD to enforce DC code is another matter (especially prohibiting the Segway tours on sidewalks in the CBD).
So motorized wheelchairs are allowed on the sidewalk, but Segways aren't? Why doesn't Groves trade in his yuppie status symbol for a decent motorized wheelchair? Or better yet, a customized, fully pimped-out Rocket-Gimp Brand® Radio Flyer Buttwagon. Available with a range of engine options, from eco-friendly solar battery to Olds 442 with Glasspacks right up to the Premium Fantasy Edition complete with Rolls Royce Jet engine and afterburner. Be the envy of every shotgun toting double amputee in Northeast. The world is yours. First you get the buttwagon. Then you get the power. Then you get the women.
I flippin' hate Segways. If it is illegal to ride them on the sidewalks why do I almost get trampled by a heard of fat, Segway-riding tourists every summer downtown, hmmm?
Yeah, let's mandate that Segways stay on the streets. THAT would make us all safer.
Yeah, let's mandate that Segways stay on the streets. THAT would make us all safer.
Your tone seems to imply irony, yet I can't for the life of me understand where the content of your post justifies it.
I guess I'm at a loss for as to why a disabled person needs to ride them on the sidewalk? Sure, I get they need to be able to ride them on the sidewalk for minor stretches to get to building entrances, but can't figure out why it would be necessary for them to always be on the sidewalk...
This town is at war with pedestrians...
I dunno. I really don't see the problem with letting them ride on the side walk. The problem with putting them in the street is that I can walk faster than these things.
@newHCE, that may be true. Just wait until you've experienced being overrun on the sidewalk downtown by a group of a dozen-or-so Segway tourists. Not fun.
So you're afraid of Segways, huh?
I've always thought those things were pretty fast. According to Google, maximum speed is 12.5 mph, although they can be governed to go only 6 mph. 12.5 is average bicycle speed. 12.5 mph is way too fast for a downtown pedestrian sidewalk.
The consumer versions go slower. Also, I've got a couple of seqway cops in my neighborhood. They ride the sidewalks all the time.
If it is an issue with the tour groups, they should just have a "talk" with them.
Don't get me wrong, I don't get the whole seqway thing, but forcing them into the street doesn't seem smart.
They have internal safety mechanisms that allow them to go up to 12.5 if surface conditions permit. Most sidewalks/streets really aren't smooth enough. effectively further limiting their speed.
Ah, that changes my opinion somewhat.
I'd rather they be on the road- in bike lanes. I say this as a cyclist. :)
Any healthy person has a higher top speed than a Segway, should we ban walking on the sidewalks as well?
How long can you maintain a speed faster than a Segway? Besides, not really an apt analogy. I think there are many valid arguments to support why sprinting at full clip on a crowded downtown sidewalk should be a ticketable offense.
The analogy is apt, because people don't usually run full speed and in particular don't do so when its unsafe. Same for Segways.
A speed limit on commercial use on sidewalks would be fair, but even that would basically be pandering to the unreasonable fears of people who don't know what they are talking about (and if you think I'm wrong, go ahead and show me a single case of a pedestrian impact, let alone injury). Relegating them to the streets is unsafe for the riders and an obstruction to traffic. I mean, sure, you could just outlaw the tours entirely--but then you'd be a real dick.
FYI The tour groups are proceeded by a tour leader who basically warns work-a-day pedestrian types to get out of the way.
While it may not *seem* like such a big deal to you right now... once you get overtaken by a mob of those things--you'll change your tune. There is absolutely no reason to run those things on the sidewalk... they take up 3 times the amount of space as a pedestrian, go half the speed, and can plow through a small child without even stopping (although that last one seems like a pro more than a con--I hate screaming brats)... If we say that everyone can bring one onto the sidewalks eventually they'll start becomming more common place and it will just create a general nusance!
They're made to go on the sidewalks, easily go the same speed as sidewalk traffic, take maybe six more inches on a side than a person, and are no more likely to plow over a child than a pedestrian unless used very irresponsibly--they're able to stop more quickly than literally any vehicle.
The only reason you think otherwise is because you've never used one.
I bet ghost segways are much more expensive to create than ghost bikes.
We need more bike lanes downtown. Segways can ride in those w/o problem.
No - Bikes are much faster than Segways. Mixing two types of vehicles with widely different speeds, and pitting them in a narrow lane, confined by parked cars on one side, and moving vehicles on the other, is trouble.
For reference, see bikers, in-liners, and pedestrians, all on the same bike trail.
You mean, kind of like cyclists and cars in the road?
Zing!
J.O.B. Bluth rides his in the street, why can't the rest of us?
G.O.B.* that is
You made a huge mistake.
Left unclear is how police officers are supposed to be able to distinguish disabled Segway riders from other folks.
The solution is to consider all Segway riders disabled.
Those horrible monstrosities aren't allowed on downtown sidewalks? Do the Segway tour companies know that?
Yes, but it is not in their financial interest to admit that they know that.
The police only started enforcing that law this fall, and not all tour companies adapted to the change immediately.
If by "immediately" you mean "as of today's date", I agree.
Honestly, they need to rethink their business model. They should join with WABA (and whomever else) and lobby for more bike lanes downtown.
Yeah, more bike lanes would be ideal--although being on the sidewalks was only causing problems inside of people's heads. I think it would be possible to regulate the tour operators a little more (speed limits, rush hour bans, no unsupervised rentals and a way to nail anyone who actually does use them in an unsafe manner) and make everyone happy--except for the fact that everyone uses the segway as a surrogate for their hate of the fat and lazy.
You are right that DCers have a love/hate relation with (often portly) tourists. But it's more than that. No pedestrian will appreciate being unexpectedly overtaken from behind by a pack of tall cyborgs. I know the way I phrased it sounds odd... but Segways are mechanical and do make riders appear rather large. And this compounds the surprise/momentary fear pedestrians feel.
If I may be so bold, their reaction is very comparable to the reaction I receive when I (in my suit!) overtake pedestrians at a quite-civil pace while riding my bike on the sidewalk. (yes, yes, sometimes downtown in violation of the law. But there's only one of me, not a dozen like in these tours.)
Obviously, the Segways should be using the bike lanes, since the 12 mph top speed is too slow to safely be in the road, and too fast to safely be in the sidewalk.
I wonder how the cyclists will feel about "sharing the road" with a vehicle that travels a lot slower than they do.
we'll see if you're able to stir up a cyclists v. all flamewar here. i put the odds at 2 to 3.
A good cyclist fight on DCist is better than being thrown in the briar patch!
Segway riders are worse than Hitler.
Maryland drivers are the devil incarnate.
Bikers are slightly better than Stalin but not nearly as bad as Hitler.
Pedestrians are just as bad as Hitler.
I disagree. The thing about Hitler, Stalin, and the devil is that they're all either dead or fictional. And even when the non-fictional ones were alive, they really didn't affect life for us over here in 'Mer'ca too much. At least those of us who didn't have to go to Europe to kill Hitler.
Cyclists are like rats, they're everywhere and they spread disease, usually after 1:30 AM at Madams Organ. Segway riders are like the gout. Doesn't come up that much but when it really sucks when it does. Pedestrians are simply mosquitos, annoying, lots of them, easily swatted but they keep coming back.
I recall a similiar line of reasoning used to rationalize the invasion of Poland in 1939.
"I wonder how the cyclists will feel about 'sharing the road' with a vehicle that travels a lot slower than they do."
Seeing as how cyclists all travel at varying speeds and we manage to pass one another all the time without getting bent out of shape about it, I don't really see it being much of an issue outside of perhaps a vocal minority of whiners.
Then again, the vocal minority of whiners is pretty much what constitutes all of the bike/car/pedestrian debates around here.
If cyclists are OK with sharing the lane with slower-moving traffic, how come they always ride on Beach Drive instead of using the bike lane right next to it? Could it be that they'd rather make cars wait to pass them, then have to wait to pass joggers?
Jamie- It's a myth that the trail paralleling Beach Drive is a "bike lane". Actually, I'm not even sure it's a myth, as you are the only person I've heard call it that in my near 20-years in DC. It may be just your perception. :) Regardless, that "bike lane" is actually just a simple paved path, and as such is open to use by all except motorized vehicles.
The reason nearly all experienced cyclists shun that path is because it's dramatically unsafe. This is true for two primary reasons. First, it's heavily used by pedestrians, dog walkers, rollerbladers, all of the above with small children, etc. Compounding that is the fact that the trail is twisty, with blind curves, hills, etc, and, at 4-6 feet wide, it's very narrow. So a cyclist might come around a turn and be faced with an oncoming object (or several oncoming objects)in their line of travel.
The second reason is that the trail is poorly maintained, and is often covered with slippery mud or wet leaves, or snow/ice.
So we ride where it is most safe. Which is on the road. Which is perfectly legal and appropriate.
Pretty much +1 on what downtown rez said. A bike lane and a mixed use trail are not the same thing. Nobody who intends to travel faster than 12 mph should be on a mixed use trail, they belong in the road. Also, there is a great deal of misunderstanding about bike lanes, especially those you typically see in the united states, which in my opinion are so dangerous and horribly designed that they should be avoided by all cyclists. Hugging the curb in the door zone and the right hook zone is not safer than taking the lane with automobile traffic. Luckily, in most jurisdictions, cyclists are allowed to not use those 'death strips.' Not in Maryland, actually, but that is a whole different issue.
I'm a full time cyclist and I fully support segways using the bike lanes where they exist. The maximum speed is 12.5 mph, which is the average speed of a non-race bike that isn't in performance mode. For any cyclist that is going faster than 12.5 mph, when a segway is in front of them, they can wait until it possible to safely pass them, just like any other vehicle.
My only question is are rented Segways governed at the "beginner speed" setting of 6 mph? Because a 6 mph vehicle belongs on the sidewalk. Perhaps governed rental Segways should be prominently tagged or something.
From the segway website:
* How fast can the Segway PT travel?
* Each Segway PT comes with two operational settings, "beginner" and "standard". Beginner setting is set to 6mph/13kph, and the standard setting is set to 12.5mph/20kph. 12.5 mph is roughly equal to a 5-minute mile, a really fast run.
Honestly, when I'm riding in downtown traffic I probably don't often go much faster than that. If only for safety reasons (having to do with road conditions and car doors)
Just fine, thanks. We're used to it from passing all those cars stuck in traffic.
Disabled Segway riders should get their own lane, right between the drunken bicyclist lane and the neurologically damaged skateboard rider lane. Or possibly between the jet pack lane and the speeding Metrobus on fire lane. Once the pedestrian lanes are added, cars can be allowed to drive on the sidewalks. Not that they don't already.
Non-issue. If motorized wheelchairs are allowed on sidewalks, Segways should be allowed on sidewalks. And if you're not going to ask each wheelchair rider for "proof of disability" you can't really do it to Segway riders, either.
Guided tour Segway conga lines are another story, though, and could conceivably be dealt with through a more specific statute about commercial usage or numbers riding together, voluntary agreements between the city and the vendors, etc.
Wheelchairs are intended for use by disabled people. It's pretty safe to assume that if someone is in a wheelchair, s/he is disabled.
Segways, on the other hand, are not intended for disabled people. That's not to say disabled people can't use them, because it's obvious that some do. But while the wheelchair guess is a safe assumption, the Segway guess is not a safe assumption at all.
In fact, I would not equate Segways to motorized wheelchairs at all.
Actually, the courts are still taking Segway use under consideration (along with other non-traditionial motorized devices) as a reasonable accommodation under Title III of the ADA. A wheelchair is not necessarily the appropriate accommodation for every person with a disability, and technology has changed significantly from when the ADA laws went into effect in the early '90s.
Ohhh, good point. My views exactly. If it is a group issue, they can handle that. I see a few individual segway riders on the street. They don't bother me.
"Sidewalks are for regular walkin', not fancy walkin'!" - Old Simpsons addage
That especially goes for you Segwayers and cyclists...
That's a paddlin'.
My retarded monkey needs emergency legislation to permit him to poop on the street as well as the sidewalk.
Get back in the Rocket Gimp Brand® Radio Flyer Buttwagon, Liz.
Am I a bad person because I actually want to take a Segway Safari tour? (
(No way I am paying the beaucoup bucks they want for it, tho)
When I see Segways, I think of that Bugs Bunny cartoon with Marvin the Martian and those green bird things on flying scooters. And that incessant music.
According to the Examiner article, the manager of City Segway Tours at 9th & G streets acknowledged that it is illegal to allow his customers to travels on city sidewalks.
He may claim to know the law but this company STILL allows its customers to use the sidewalks. I know, because I work at the MLK Library across the street and see them all the time. Heck, they have even used the public sidewalk under the overhang of the library to TRAIN the tourists how to operate these dangerous vehicles.
The next time I see a group of them barreling down the sidewalk, I am going to physically stop them and in the tradition of Gomer on that classic Andy Griffith episode yell, "Citizens arrest!" and call the police.
I just saw the afternoon tour at 13th and G -- in the bike lane.
SSHISTORY and others--- your assessment of segways could not be more misguided and ignorant. As a resident of the 9th and G area, and consistent segway user, I can tell you that segways are far from dangerous. There has not been a recorded incident of a pedestrian on a sidewalk being hit by a segway. In addition, certain segway companies follow self-imposed regulations related to group size, speed and sidewalk courtesy absent in other companies' procedures. When basic sidewalk courtesy is observed (walk on the right, don't walk four abreast), segways can accomplish literally zero obstruction. When this courtesy is absent, segway presence on the sidewalk is still but a minor inconvenience for the few... not apocalyptic danger for the masses. Finally, as a resident of the area, I can tell everyone that I have not seen this company on the sidewalk in weeks. They haven't not trained by the MLK library in well over a year.
The ignorance on this issue is staggering. People would rather put innocent tourists having fun and put them into danger because of their ignorance and minor inconveniences. I say, let them have fun. Let them enjoy the city that we live in. It's better than having a billion double decker buses double parking throughout the city and blocking traffic lights.
"The next time I see a group of them barreling down the sidewalk, I am going to physically stop them and in the tradition of Gomer on that classic Andy Griffith episode yell, "Citizens arrest!" and call the police."
YOU KIDS GET OFF OF MY LAWN!!
Sorry, I hate the Segways too, but I just wanted to say that.
The funny thing is that I see DC police officers cruising down the sidewalk all the time, never riding on the street....must be a bunch of disabled cops.
Oh, Fixx. You win this time....
Great so now every fat lazy slob can go buy a segway and claim they're disabled... ride on the sidewalks and mow everybody down or just take up the valuable space needed for those of us who walk at anything other than a glacial pace... Just who gets to decide who is "disabled" and who isn't?! I might ague that anyone who is "disabled" in the truest sense would likely not benefit from riding a segway since that still involves standing, which if this guy really had genuine back pain, would be just as difficult. Just because you have pain from being fat and lazy doesn't make you disabled!!!
Maybe I"m being crass, but to me a segway is just the rich lazyman's way of getting around... it's a novelty, an annoyance, and less effecient than walking, biking, or even a scooter would be.
So what if you don't like them. In my mind, those obnoxious fertility moms with their double-wide carriages are more of a nuisance.
Why do you hate motherhood, crotchfruit, and America? In 500 words or less, please.
Have you seen the double carriages with one seat slung under the other? Kids are never too young to be introduced to the concept of the 'bitch seat'.
I gots no problem with the in-lines. It's the Mommy Goddesses with the double wides that drive me nuts.
Sidewalk plows!
Where in the article did it say that he had back pain? Chronic pain isn't necessarily back pain, and you are making a big assumption with your "fat and lazy" comments. A few examples where a Segway (or other nontraditional motorized device) would be more useful than a traditional wheelchair would be for people with mobility issues such as MS, severe arthritis or partial paralysis - you can stand comfortably but can't walk long distances. Consider the huge difference in how you are perceived if you are standing vs. always being at height of everyone else's butt.
Sorry I'm not my usual lighthearted self today, but some of the "fat and lazy" thinking here needs direct answers.
Bethesda-What??? You are not a 25 year old healthy biker??? I am sorry, then your opinion does not matter.
Oh I'm healthy, unless you're talking mental, then I'm probably not so great. But civil rights are an interest of mine, and accessibility is a civil right.
I betcha if it was a disabled Segway rider with a gun you'd be all "hells yeah, livin' the dream, baby!" - although if the rider had tremors that might add some unintentional excitement.
You dont have to tell me. A close relative of mine has an "invisible" condition. You wouldnt believe the loud grillings she would het from the old bats on NYC busses when she sat in the front. YOU DONT LOOK HANDICAPPED. WHATS WRONG WITH YOU?
That's exactly what this thread needs: armed, mentally challenged Segway riders protesting for DC voting and abortion rights by running doublewide strollers off the street.
I'll probably get beat up by the cool kids for saying this, but...I love Segways. Took one of the D.C. tours last year and had great fun. Thought the technology was impressive -- smooth ride, quiet, responsive, and zero turning radius. Now any time friends come to visit, I get them to take a Segway tour -- with the caveat that it's more like a "Segway and urban legend tour" of D.C. since half the stuff their young'un guides say isn't true.
And they're still better than those damn hoverounds...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csuZHyW-iGI
I'm kind of impressed that the commentariat has managed to come up with 70+ things to say about a story that probably only just barely beat out the "Puppy Loves Birthday Cake" feature photo on page Z35 of the city's number three free daily. I guess it has what we call Zazz.
nothing surprises me about this commentariat. these are my people—equal parts insightful, inartful, and insane! :)
There was a puppy with a birthday cake? Dammit, was there another cake party that I didn't get invited to???