Morning Roundup: Where There's Smoke Edition
Gay Couple to Get Married at Ben & Jerry's in Georgetown
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Conan O'Brien Tour to Stop in D.C. on June 8
Speed Restrictions Contributing to Metro Delays
In case you missed this story from FOX 5 on Friday night, reporter Ron Plater found that Carla Proctor, the former Metrobus driver behind the wheel of the bus that struck 30-year-old Amanda Mahnke on Sept. 3, is being accused of running the light at the intersection of Connecticut and Florida Avenues before she hit Mahnke.
Proctor was fired last week for "failing to follow standard operating procedures." We were pleased to read in FOX 5's story that Mahnke has recently been moved out of the intensive care unit.FOX 5 has learned that police concluded the light was already yellow when the bus driver entered the intersection, and that light turned red when she was midway through the intersection.
At the same time, the jogger got a walk sign, and that's when she was struck.
Investigators did not find an iPod or headphones at the scene. Mahnke was left severely injured, and is still in the hospital.
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Well, then. That should shut some haters up.
I hope that Amanda gets well soon. I expect that she will be pretty set financially for quite awhile, too. Unfortunately, Metro skimping on driver qualification and pay will end up, in this case at least, with Metro having to pay out WAY more than they would on actually firing bad drivers and hiring good ones.
FOX Enzyte 5 has learned that police concluded the light was already yellow when the bus driver entered the intersection, and that light turned red when she was midway through the intersection.
Sounds to me like the pedestrian signals don't give traffic enough time to clear the intersection.
From the DC DMV handbook entry on yellow lights:
This means that the signal is changing from green to red. Its purpose is to provide time for approaching traffic to stop safely and to clear other vehicles from the intersection before the light turns red. If you are too close to the intersection to stop safely, continue through the intersection with care.
There definitely needs to be a change of timing on the lights there. It's a huge intersection and I regularly have to watch out for cars on Florida trying to cross Connecticut late on the yellow.
You are incorrect. The best link I can find on short notice is page 6 of http://dmv.dc.gov/pdf/title-18/CHAPTER_26.pdf which sites a $50 fine for passing a solid yellow light, but your interpretation of traffic light laws is incorrect. A yellow light indicates that you should only enter the intersection if you cannot safely stop before the stop line. If the bus was in the intersection long enough for the light to turn red I believe it is fairly safe to assume it could have stopped during the yellow light.
I know most people think a yellow light means "hurry up, it's going to be red soon!" but that is simply not the case.
If the bus was in the intersection long enough for the light to turn red I believe it is fairly safe to assume it could have stopped during the yellow light.
I don't know that that is necessarily a safe assumption. That is a wide intersection and I'm not sure the light timing is sufficient - either the length of the yellow, or the timing between the traffic signal change and the walk signal change.
And, buses take longer to stop than cars.
It's certainly likely that the driver had time to stop, but it's at least plausible that she didn't.
Basically, I still don't think any of us have enough information to assume anything.
Legally, you are required to stop for a yellow if you can, and it is considered running a red if you are still in the intersection when the light becomes red. DC police just rarely enforce the law. In fact, it is often unenforced when people blatantly run a red.
Well, if Jeff Bridges has taught me anything: Red light stop, green light go, yellow light go very fast.
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but your assertion would be much more appealing with some actual law to back it up.
I'll break out the D.C. Code when I get home, but in the meantime, anyone care to cite a Statute?
I believe the relevant statute is D.C. Mun. Regs. Ch. 21 ยง 2103.5(b):
A STEADY YELLOW SIGNAL alone shall have the following meaning:
(a) Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that a
related green signal is being terminat ed or that a red signal will be
exhibited thereafter, or both; and
(b) Vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the nearest crosswalk of the
intersection, unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot safely
be made.
The words 'unless a stop can safely be made' really cripple the rest of the statute. Since 'safe' is not defined, anyone is free to define it.
Really anyone can say that they did not stop at a yellow because doing so would have been 'unsafe.' Such a situation is easy to imagine.
Example: did not want to slam on brakes suddenly as doing so might result in a collision with the car behind you, thus creating an 'unsafe' condition.
Example: did not want to stop suddenly as doing so might result in your 'very hot' coffee spilling on you, scalding and or burning you. Sounds like an 'unsafe' condition to me!
Example: If it was raining you could say that stopping suddenly would cause your car to hydroplane, resulting in an unsafe condition where the driver could not control the vehicle.
It is unsafe if it is necessary to lock up the brakes and skid the tires in order to stop in time?
Sounds to me like you've got your priorities rearranged. While the law technically allows for movement through a yellow light, in no way does this condone speeding to "catch" the light - just because that's the de facto interpretation by impatient drivers on the road doesn't mean that defense will hold up in court.
Without knowing for sure, I'd hazard to guess that Metro's "standard operating procedures" has language regarding the need to exert caution at yellow lights above and beyond the law because of the physics involved with driving a bus, which would speak to why, at this juncture, she's only been fired and not specifically brought up on criminal charges.
Again, the latter paragraph is speculation, but I would be surprised if I was really far off.
It can be dangerous to stop at a yellow light if there's someone behind you because most drivers are impatient and assume that you are too.
I've had a guy get out of his car, march up to my window, and start screaming at me when I stopped at a light that was turning red. I was afraid the guy was going to smash my window or something.
When I conveyed this story to a seasoned DC driver, expecting sympathy, she said, "Well, why on Earth were you stopping at a yellow light?"
A good case in point for how pedestrians get hit. Yellow light requires stopping in all states if you can reasonably do so--i.e. are not already at the intersection. That's drivers' ed 101. It is just a buffer zone between one direction's red and the other's green. Without it you would have cases where the light would go green-to-red right as a car entered the intersection and they would get hit by the other traffic.
Walk signal turns Go as soon as the light changed to red because cars were suppose to stop at the yellow.
This particularly intersection is just terrible because cars (and worse big buses) speed way too fast down Connecticut southbound and turn through the light onto Florida east bound because they don't want to have to wait for oncoming traffic on the next green.
I was stopped by a DC cop and given a warning for entering an intersection while the light was yellow
Proctor was fired last week for "failing to follow standard operating procedures."
Since when is driving with near complete disregard for traffic laws not Metro's SOP?
You're right!
Metro's SOP is to almost run over cyclists in the bike lanes. Routinely run Yellow and Red lights. And to advance into the intersection before the light turns green to begin with. Generally Metro doesn't give a shit about others on the road be they other drivers, pedestrians or other transport. The tragedies of this summer are just proof that lack of diligence on the Agency's part costs lives and limbs.
No ipod? Is that true? If it is the case then I think we have to take the runner's side in this. From what I've observed at intersections in DC, runners are usually more aware of pedestrian signals than most pedestrians are (and trust me, I'm not a runner, I think its bad for you...). Anyways, I hope she gets a nice fat check from WMATA with John Catoe's limited time autograph on it. Once he goes, justice will have been done.
I've seen more than a few joggers/runners exhibit boneheaded behavior at intersections (definitely not saying that's the case here), but usually at intersections involving less traveled streets. Though last week, walking home from Harris-Teeter, while waiting to cross 18th Street at Kalorama, I saw one guy jogging up 18th (in the street) looking over his shoulder to see if it was safe run across 18th against the light. Northbound traffic had the green. He didn't notice the car in front of him turning right onto Kalorama had stopped for pedestrians and he ran right into the rear left corner of the car. I started laughing and he looked a bit embarrassed. Fortunately for him, he wasn't in front of the car.
Yeah but the other part to it is that the police report stated she was "jogging" across the street, which (although we would assume) does not necessarily mean she was jogging for exercise. She could've simply been hurrying across the crosswalk, which MPD decided to describe as jogging.
Not that you don't have your fair share of boneheaded behavior among non-runners like myself...
This is true. I wasn't commenting on her behavior necessarily, just PapaWest's observation that joggers generally pay attention more at intersections. As far as I'm concerned no one in this town -- joggers, pedestrians, drivers or cyclists -- has a monopoly on dumb behavior.
Running red/yellow lights is pretty standard for Metro buses, so this is not surprising. One of the worst intersections is at Connecticut & Calvert. The red right turn arrow for traffic turning onto Conn. from Calvert is routinely ignored by cars and Metro buses alike. Let me tell you, you don't want to be in the way when that L2 comes tear-assin' around the corner. If I had seen it only once or twice I could write it off as an isolated inicident, but the sad fact is that I see it frequently at multiple intersections.
Of course, when I'm actually on the bus, I love it when drivers are reckless as they get me to where I want to go faster. It's only when I'm a pedestrian do I crap my pants whenever one of those blue and white death machines rumbles on by.
In DC it is technically illegal to enter an intersection when the light is yellow. This seems a mind-bogglingly impossible law to adhere to with any kind of regularity, since if the light changes to yellow while you are going 25 mph 10 feet from the intersection, you are certainly going to have to enter it.
That said, if the light changed to red while the bus driver was in the middle of the intersection, there are two things that follow logically.
1) The light was probably yellow with plenty of time for the driver to stop
2) The jogger obviously did not even look at the road before they stepped into it.
The bus driver is probably guilty of doing something every one of us has done at some point - running a yellow light.
The jogger did not perform the most basic safety check: look both ways before crossing a street.
Technically, since the law is the way it is, this is the driver's fault. But how can anyone say that the jogger bears no responsibility? If you walk into a road without even LOOKING right after the light has changed then you have very low self preservation instinct.
If someone walked into a crosswalk at an uncontrolled intersection and a car was right there, would you blame the car for hitting them? Technically, that would also be the fault of the car.
The law is not enough to keep you safe. You have to also want to live.
if i added up the number of times i've seen wmata buses go through red lights (thankfully, without having witnessed a horrific accident), i'd be able to buy drinks for everyone at the 6th annual dcist anniversary party...
Ok fine then, lets all be proactive.
If you see a bus run a red light, or you're on a bus running a red light, do your best to note the bus number/tag.
If you see a pedestrian in the cross walk be sure to yell, "hey asshole, it says not to walk, are you f'n blind?"
If you see a bicyclist violating traffic rules of any kind see if you can bean them with a small hard object, like a rock or the seat from a ghost bike, they just might get it.
By doing all of these things, or even just one of them we can make DC a safer place and keep Catoe in office.
Catoe - Councilmember '09!!!
I'm done.
I'll have to research D.C. traffic laws when I get home.
I know that in Maryland, one is only required to have entered the intersection before the light turns red. That is, as long as the light is yellow when you pass the 'stop line,' you are not running the light.
I'm not sure about D.C., but in MD, the alleged conduct of the bus driver in this instance would not be considered unlawful.
As a side note/rant, I generally believe that very few people in this area actually know how to drive. I've managed to drive for the past 16 years without a single accident but I'm an anomaly. We should make people demonstrate knowledge of traffic laws and actualy driving competence before they get a license.
I know for sure that in Virginia the law is as others have stated, and based on the citation I found on dc.gov and the above quote from the handbook, it is safe to assume that DC law is the same. Yellow basically means "stop if you have the ability to come to a complete stop before the stop line." When I was 16 I took a defensive driving class in DC (14 years ago) and was told that the white line becomes solid rather than dashed as you approach the intersection -- if you have entered this area you are "in the intersection" and may proceed if the light turns yellow. Otherwise, you must stop. I am skeptical that this is 100% true and not something that is told to people in a defensive driving class to keep them from running yellow lights, but it is certainly true that you can receive a ticket for entering an intersection on a yellow light, as referenced by the DC code I linked to above.
jamie wrote:
The law is not enough to keep you safe. You have to also want to live.
Can we get a moratorium on clueless, second-guessing fucktards?
Thanks!
Sure. But I'm not sure what I second guessed here. The news report said the bus entered the intersection when the light was yellow.
Can you give me an example of a situation where it would not be COMPLETELY FUCKING STUPID to walk in front of a bus that was already barreling halfway through the intersection at the time the light turned in your favor?
If you dispute what is being reported then fine, but I started my comment with "if the light changed to red while the bus driver was in the middle of the intersection..."
I am a DC runner who too often finds herself at Connecticut Avenue crosswalks, and I can imagine what happened here. I bet the runner saw that the bus was approaching, but thought it was going to stop at the light rather than sail through, so when she got the walk signal she started to cross. By the time she realized that the bus was not stopping, it was too late. I can so easily imagine this scenario!
Yes, she should have lingered a bit longer before crossing to make sure that the bus would stop. But, a friggin bus should not sail through a solid yellow light! Cars shouldn't either. I am shocked at the way some people drive around here - it was very hard to get accustomed to after living in the Midwest!
Except that she wouldn't have had a walk signal until AFTER the light turned red. At which point the bus was already in the intersection.
I don't think we'll ever know exactly what happened - did the driver gun it to get through the yellow, or did she make the unfortunate split-second decision that she didn't have enough time to stop safely? We've all been there. Did the runner look before starting to cross? Hopefully, though, this will make us all a little more cautious both when we're driving and walking. Drivers need to be aware of pedestrians and pedestrians need to be aware of drivers.
If Metro fired every driver that entered an intersection on a yellow light, there would be no buses operating in the city.
Of course, downtown traffic might actually move faster if there wasn't a bus 'blocking the box' at every intersection during rush hour.
On a semi-related side note: why do some runners choose to run on main streets with lots of pedestrians and traffic? It seems like every time I'm in Georgetown or Dupont there is some runner trying to weave through packs of lolly-gagging shoppers/pedestrians. I've never run a day in my life, so maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't running on side streets be better for everyone involved?
This thread brings to mind an old joke from the 1980s:
Why does San Francisco have all the AIDS patients while DC has all the lawyers?
San Francisco had first pick.
You may now resume your debate of municipal regulations.
So, we are all commenting on running red lights and having walk signs, and yet what is our assumption here?
Is the assumption that the bus was and had been for some time on Florida Avenue and was proceeding across the many-laned Connecticut Avenue?
Or is everyone's assumption that the bus was traveling north on Connecticut Avenue and making a(n improbable) turn onto Florida Avenue?
This is only the very heart of the matter of course.
And yet, the only only only account I've seen that lays it out (their understanding of it, that is) very clearly is a Post article the day of or the day after the crash which had a diagram averring that the bus was on Connecticut turning east onto Florida.
I highly doubted that diagram, said so as loudly and often as possible.
Why are no witnesses quoted in any accounts? Do people not want to be? THERE WERE WITNESSES. Why haven't we seen an updated diagram? Or is the police version or otherwise official version that the bus was indeed on Connecticut? (And I am the one who could be wrong.)
I heard that the jogger was indeed wearing an iPod.
al ham bra: please, don't go accusing people of getting the story wrong when you have major parts of it wrong yourself.
I M Goph. Please. Don't go implying that you know what the story is without telling us what the story is. I said in one of the last sentences that I could be wrong.
Tell me where I am wrong and what is the exact story.
Comment 35 notes that I heard wrong about the iPod. But I'm not sure if that's also where you think I am wrong.
Alhambra, please stop repeating this idea that she was wearing earbuds. It's wrong. As the Fox5 story quoted above says, she didn't have an iPod or earbuds with her.
al-...-ham-...-bra: i don't need to tell what the story is.
you made an assertion, you need to back it up. i didn't make any assertions regarding the story. i read, what you did, that you had parts of it wrong. if you're going to start something with an "i heard..." you usually should be ready to back that up with something more concrete, that's all.
Bus traveling southbound Connecticut turning left onto Florida.
DC Ist,
You need to be more specific in YOUR account, too. OK?
BTW, here is the link to the Post article with the diagram:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/03/AR2009090301780.html?nav=emailpage
@33: "I heard that the jogger was indeed wearing an iPod."
You heard wrong. She wasn't carrying her iPod or wearing earbuds.